Ask Sir Tony - an Electronics/Electrical Q & A thread

• Peorth on 26 Dec 20 @ 04:58 PM #

  Ang explanation po kasi nila sa mica tubing is if ever sumabog daw hindi daw basta basta masisira or makakalusot sa mica tubing unlike plastic PVC utility box na pwede yata matunaw? But I'm not sure how that checks out kasi there's wire coming out of the receptacle na hindi covered ng mica tube. I just agreed since I was trusting their word being licensed electricians and the person I went to vouched for them. It seems like I should have exercised more caution.

  
  
  Maybe may point siya but hindi acceptable conduit material for AC wiring ang mica tube. Eto ang ginagamit na conduits for electrical wiring:
  
  
  
  <click here for link>
  
  Moreover, kung protection ang habol niya hindi acceptable na may exposed wiring. Ang wires fully enclosed dapat ng conduit, then ang conduit nagteterminate sa outlet box. So yung ginawang trabaho medyo pointless, protected nga ng mica tubing most ng wires pero meron exposed. Eh paano kung doon nginatngat ng daga at ma-expose ang wire? Yan ang perfect example ng mga Filipino-style "pwede na" attitude na walang pakialam sa standards! BTW, kung yung may issue siya sa durability ng PVC against "pagsabog" then just use metallic conduits, yan rin may highest resistance to damage against stuff like rodents.
  
  

  Tinanong ko po kasi ito sa electrician na nagkabit ng outlet. Akala ko po kasi kailangan ingatan ang outlet dahil pwede mag overload tulad ng sabi niyo, at ito din po ang rason kung bakit nagpagawa ako ng bagong outlet kasi sa kwarto ko isa lang ang outlet at madami nakakabit. Minsan pa nga napapagamit ako ng daisy chaining which is supposedly bad (pero sabi din ng electrician hindi daw basta makapal yung wiring ng extension cord, but I wasn't sold on that thought).

  
  
  Technically, ang issue is hindi sa number of connected devices sa single outlet pero yung total load (wattage or more precisely, volt-amps for AC). Eh kung puro cellphone charger ang naka-plug sa single outlet using multiple extension cords kahit 20 pa yan pwede.
  
  

  Ang pagkakaintindi ko po kasi ang maximum load na kaya ng isang outlet ay dipende sa circuit na nakakabit siya. Sa isang circuit po daw around 2200 watts maximum ang kaya bago mag trip. Then ang bawat outlet po daw ang sabi niya ng una 100w max load daw puwede, pero sabi ko "ah oo nga po, nagpagawa din ako ng bagong outlet kasi sumosobra ng 100w ang gamit ko sa outlet na luma" then sabay sabi niya ok lang daw yun kahit sumobra. I gave an example of 300w load at sabi nila pwede. At that point parang feeling ko po wala mapupuntahan usapan kaya nag agree nalang ako. Parang di din po kasi sila open to much questions. Trabaho lang.

  
  
  Ang maximum load ng isang outlet ay dependent sa ratings ng lahat ng involved sa circuit, specifically yung receptacle rating, yung gauge ng wire and yung circuit breaker/fuse rating. Yung 100W per outlet nonsense yan, dito pa lang sa TipidPC makikita mo may nag-wattmeter ng gaming rigs nila under full load, meron umaabot ng 500 watts pataas. Morever, tignan mo ang ratings ng iba't ibang appliances like microwave, flat iron, etc. na nakasaksak sa outlet, lagpas lagpas yan ng 100 watts.
  
  Ang 2200 watts na binanggit is computation for six 2-receptacle convenience outlets (CO). Ang sabi kasi ng PEC ang minimum load to be assumed for each receptacle is 180 volt-amperes; 12 x 180 watts per outlet = 2,160 watts which is near 2.2 kW. Ang minimum size ng wire for COs is #12 AWG or 3.5 mm^2, which is rated for 30-35 amps for most kinds of wires (e.g. TW, THHW, THWN, etc.) used in residential applications. 220 volts x 30 amperes is 6,600 VA. Ang appliance circuits maximum allowed amperes is 20 amps, which will be protected by a fuse or circuit breaker designed to carry 80% of the max load = 16 amperes, 16 x 220 V = 3,520 VA. So hindi totoo na magtri-trip ang circuit breaker or mag-melt ang fuse at > 2.2 kW since ang 20 A circuit breaker carrying the maximum allowed load is carrying 3,520 watts. Ang tripping threshold is actually set much higher than this; for example yung 20 amp breaker allowed to carry up to 40 amps as long as it trips in < 120 seconds.
  
  In short, in your typical 20 amp residential circuit feeding appliances, protected by a 20-amp fuse or circuit breaker, 2.2 kVA is conservative estimate and in reality pwede yan mag-carry ng up to 3.5 kVA (80% of the breaker rating). Your #12 AWG wire can actually carry a load of up to 6.6 kVA so may considerable safety leeway. How about each individual receptacle (wall socket)? Most are rated at 10 A at 250V = 2.5 kVA, so supposedly even a single socket can carry the entire 2.2 kVA conservative estimate. In short, mahirap mag-overload ng isang wall socket unless magplug ka ng several high-wattage appliances at sabay-sabay silang naka-on. In the entire chain, the wall socket actually has the lowest rating (socket 2.5 kVA, AC wiring 6.6 kVA, fuse/breaker 3.5 kVA) so baka yan unang masunog/matunaw; of course kung meron kang extension cord na manipis with a lower rating pwedeng yan ang unang masunog.
  
  

  How do I know if my room or house has any AFCI installed? My family's home that I currently live in was built in 2009

  
  
  Nearly zero ang chance, because despite being in the PEC as a requirement parang walang local stores na nagbebenta ng AFCIs based on Google searches. Mabuti pa ang GFCI or GFCI circuit breaker/RCBO, mas madaling hanapin at locally available, especially yung GFCI receptacles. Kung nagpapagawa ka ng bahay at nagpa-plan ka ng best electrical protection, mukang kailangan bilin abroad ang AFCI (meron sa suking online stores, though puro Chinese brands like Taixi ang listed). In any case, kung gusto mong malaman talaga just look at the main service panel or subpanels and look for an AFCI:
  
  
  
  
  (Note na since 220 V ang standard voltage sa Pinas these safety devices are double-pole, i.e. twice the usual width of single-pole devices, so that both "hot" lines are broken when tripped. Sa 110-volt systems isa lang ang hot wire so that you only need to trip one line with a single-pole breaker)
  
  

  All three electricians I talked to this past month didn't know about GFCI (or EL Guard) outlets because I was hoping to have one installed in my kitchen and bathroom where a water heater resides.

  
  
  Only goes to show that ang daming "pseudo-electricians" sa Pinas. Ang GFCI and AFCI parehong nasa PEC, though konti lang ang entries ng AFCI compared as GFCI. Kung tunay na electrician sila, dapat may idea sila at least sa GFCI because sobrang daming entries ng GFCI with regards kung saan sila ginagamit, e.g. tabi ng pools, fountains, sa bathrooms, etc.
  
  

  At this point I didn't get answer from any electricians about the kind of Meralco line we have. I was told that we don't have a three-phase so it's probably single phase, but then I don't know if this means we have a hot/neutral wiring where the neutral is earthed. Nakita ko kasi sa labas ng poste namin meron grounding rod ng Meralco. And may white wire sa meter namin which I was told is ground... Pero ang sabi sa akin tumawag daw ako sa Meralco kasi 'disconnected' daw ang ground namin and pointed to a bunch of wiring atop of the poste. Sa kabit bahay daw namin di naman daw disconnected. So don't know if the neutral is earthed, and if it is, then it probably doesn't work if it's 'disconnected' or putol.

  
  
  Lahat ng residential single-phase ang supply, ang three-phase is used sa industrial and large commercial applications dahil mas efficient ang large equipment, particularly motors, using a three-phase supply.
  
  Di mo naman kailangan tumawag sa Meralco, labas ka lang tapos tignan mo service drop niyo (yung wires papasok sa bahay mula sa poste or yung wires between electric posts. Ang typical Meralco installation is yung so-called "line to line". Ang papasok sa bahay ay THREE conductors, two na live or "hot" (think of each as 110 volts) plus one neutral. Ang neutral is supplied through an uninsulated (bare) aluminum conductor which also serves as yung support ng two live wires (dun nakapulupot ang wires). Ang dulo ng aluminum cable is bonded to a copper conductor, na pumapasok sa service cap/weatherhead along with the live wires, then pumapasok na sa bahay, typically passing through the electric meter:
  
  
  
  
  Ang grounding rod sa poste ng Meralco is grounding for the neutral, typically every post may grounding rod to ground the neutral. Ang ground ng bahay is different mula sa ground ng Meralco because hindi nagsu-supply ng ground ang Meralco unlike in other countries. Sa Pinas ang grounding system natin ay terre terre (TT), meaning ang protective earthing is provided by a local earth electrode. In other words, ang bahay dapat may sariling grounding system using grounding rod(s) or something else like concrete-encased electrodes (Ufer system). Kung may grounding ang sockets niyo sa bahay (maraming bahay sa Pinas walang grounding!), ang grounding wire from the conduits will go to the service panel, and from the service panel may grounding wire papuntang grounding rod(s) or equivalent.
  
  Note na meron some references na nagsasabi na may Meralco installations ng a two hots lang at walang neutral, so important to check kung ano ang pumapasok sa bahay. Also, sa province uso ang "line to neutral", meaning two wires lang ang papasok sa bahay: 1 x 220 volt "hot" or live line, plus one neutral. Walang way gumawa ng 110 volts with this system except using a step-down transformer.
  
  

  This is an interesting (or frightening) case because currently my outlet's ground is screwed to my metal panel board. I'm freaking out kasi ang pagkakaalam ko pwede mag overheat or worse electricute dahil ang discharge ay doon mapupunta. I don't know if the screw they screwed it on is bonded, or if the panel board is earthed/grounded. I was just assured that this ground will protect my devices in case of a surge. Though they offered me to 'extend' the current ground wire and attach it to the grounding rod of Meralco sa poste outside. I'm not sure if that's safe or allowed by Meralco...

  
  
  Let's say meron kang 10 sockets with a grounding wire. Ang grounding wires na yan should end up in your main service panel. Ideally may sariling busbar (the metal bar with holes and screws to clamp wires together) para malinis, then yung grounding wire from the grounding system (e.g. grounding rod) is screwed to that busbar. Yung metal service panel is also connected to the ground (e.g. wire from a busbar terminal to a screw in the panel) for safety purposes. Then yung neutral may sariling busbar, which is always bonded to the ground at only ONE POINT in the entire home at the main service panel, bawal na bonded ang neutral ang ground elsewhere like subpanels. BTW, kung wala kang 110 volt outlet you don't need a neutral conductor going to the outlet. To make it clearer:
  
  
  
  
  Note here important points:
  1. Supply from the power company (LINE side) 3 lang, 2 hots and one neutral. Ground is supplied locally, then pag exit sa LOAD side (going to outlets) 4 ang wires: two hots, one ground, one neutral. But again, if wala talagang plan gawing 110 V ang socket, even in the future, pwede hindi na maglatag ng neutral.
  2. The neutral (right) and ground (left) busbars are bonded together by a horizontal metal connector.
  3. Not shown clearly, but the panel should also be grounded by means of a connection to the grounding wire or ground busbar.
  
  

  At first I asked them if they were going to ground my outlet by using a grounding rod, but wasn't sure what materials are required like is it going to be a rebar or one of those grounding rods they sell on Shopee. I was going to rely on what they know kasi to begin with I don't know where the grounding rod should be impaled. For example the area near my panel board sometimes gets wet, so not sure if that will introduce a hazard.
  
  Pero ang sabi nila di na daw kailangan?? So they screwed my ground wire to the panel board. I am so confused. Not to mention I am even more confused because I've read somewhere na just because there's no third wire it doesn't mean the outlet isn't grounded (as long as the CORRECT implementation has been made, which is a coin flip unless you have a really good electrician) which is presumably from the prior knowledge that some neutral line here in the PH is earthed...

  
  
  Dapat kasi alam mo kung meron ground yung electrical system ng bahay niyo to begin with. Hiwalay to na wire na papasok sa panel, as shown above. Again, 3 from Meralco (hot x 2, 1 x neutral) assuming line-to-line ang supply niyo, then 1 grounding wire, which can be traced back to the grounding system. Pwede i-screw yung ground wire ng socket sa metal panel as long as yung panel is grounded to begin with, meaning ang grounding wire is screwed to the panel itself. Kung walang grounding wire going to the panel then useless ang ground wire na linatag papuntantg socket.
  
  

  Though they offered me to 'extend' the current ground wire and attach it to the grounding rod of Meralco sa poste outside. I'm not sure if that's safe or allowed by Meralco...

  
  
  I don't think acceptable yan kasi tampering yan with equipment ng electric company. Ang best gawin, kung walang ground ang bahay (common sa Pinas!) ay maglagay ng sariling grounding system. Most commonly grounding rod(s), pero may other ways like using metallic water pipe pero lahat yan may requirements. Kung grounding rod system ang plano, mo eto ang requirements, as stated in the PEC:
  
  Rod and Pipe Electrodes. Rod and pipe electrodes shall not be less than 2 400 mm in length and shall consist of the following
  materials.
  a. Electrodes of pipe or conduit shall not be smaller than metric designator 21 (trade size ¾) and, where of iron or steel, shall have the outer surface galvanized or otherwise metal-coated for corrosion protection.
  b. Electrodes of rods of iron or steel shall be at least 16 mm in diameter. Stainless steel rods less than 16 mm in diameter, nonferrous rods, or their equivalent shall be listed and shall not be less than 13 mm in diameter.
  
  So kung iron or steel pipe (a), dapat 21 mm or 3/4 inches ang size, kung solid steel or iron rod at least 16 mm (1.6 cm) ang diameter; minimum length for both is 2.4 meters. Best place ibaon would be soil na may moisture para mas conductive ang earth. May cases kasi na hindi conductive ang earth (mataas ang resistance in ohms), so more than one grounding rod ang kailangan. Or you can make the rod longer so that umabot siya a wet earth near the water table.
  
  

  I was already losing hope with all the different electricians I have hired so far. Every time I mention them if they are familiar with whole house surge protection (along with other electrical safety practices that are apparently not popular here) they tell them hindi uso, even for grounding outlets. Sabi nila sa akin mostly prop lang ang third prong, at hindi din uso ground dito. So I never bothered asking them to make me a grounded outlet since I figure if I insist they might cave but do a halfed-ass job just to satisfy me and pray that I don't know whether or not they've done a proper job. Meanwhile, this other electrician that worked on my grounded outlet, maybe I should have known when they kept asking what the grounded outlet was going to be for... I was going to say "safety" to them originally, but I was dreading the standard reply where the question is at risk of sounding like a joke to their ears. So I just told them my surge protector's warranty requires a ground (which it does). And that's probably why I ended up with the grounded wire screwed to my panel board (or circuit breaker box) assuring me it will do a fine job against surge. I don't have high hopes for it because of the other decisions they've made, but admittedly I'd still be gutted if it turns out to be a flop. The job would have been a pointless expense then even after several electricians.

  
  
  Meron whole-house surge protectors rin, pero di uso. If you want the whole works of electrical safety features, malabo na makahanap ka ng marunong na electrician except siguro if you're dealing with a licensed electrician na familiar sa industrial and commercial projects kung saan mas stringent ang requirements. For example, lahat ng high-end hotels na napuntahan ko ang bathroom outlets ay GFCI receptacles, in compliance with the PEC.
  
  For a fully electrically hardened/protected house, best would be kapag nagtatayo ka pa lang ng bahay kasi mahirap mag retrofit. From the get go dapat planned out ang electrical supply ng bahay with with the full suite of protection devices installed sa main panel and subpanels, if necessary. This would include:
  1) circuit breakers - for overcurrent
  2) whole house surge suppressor - for surges
  3) GFCI breaker / residual-current circuit breaker with overcurrent protection (RCBO) - better to use this instead of a pure GFCI/RCD/RCCB para may overcurrent protection rin and will cut down in the number of circuit breakers needed - for ground fault, i.e. electrocution hazard
  4) arc fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) - to mitigate fire hazard caused by arcing/sparks
  
  If you're curious how a RCBO/GFCI breaker is mounted and can protect subsidiary miniature circuit breakers (MCBs) pwede mo tignan tong video na to:
  
  
  For houses na high lightning hazard (e.g. solo house on top of a hill), pwede rin maglagay ng lightning protection system, may companies locally na specialized sa installation nito though typically for commercial/industrial applications.
  
  Going back to grounding, ikaw na lang gumawa at malamang mas matino pa trabahong gagawin mo. Bili ka ng 3/4" (21 mm) galvanized iron or steel pipe, minimum length of 2.4 meters pero pwede mo pasobrahin, e.g. 3 meters. At one end, drill a hole and put a bolt and screw to secure yung ground wire. Alternatively, buy a commercial grounding rod which conforms to yung PEC specs. Wire the ground wire to the grounding rod, then ilatag papuntang service panel, screw to metal case of service panel and using the same screw pwede na i-connect yung ground papuntan sockets. Kung maraming ground wires, better to install a separate busbar. For the neutral, don't forget na dapat bonded rin siya sa ground sa service panel.
  
  Also, kung mahirap maglatag ng new wires sa existing sockets/conduits, pwede naman hindi padaanin dun. For example, yung bahay namin walang grounding ever since tinayo. Nung nag-install kami ng water heater sa bathroom, nag-wire kami ng ground papuntang grounding rod. Since yung bathroom eh nasa extreme edge ng wall (i.e. yung bakuran na ang nasa labas), yung ground wire galing socket pinadaan lang namin through yung bintana and secured sa outside concrete wall using cable clips, then nakadikit sa grounding rod.
  
  -- edited by Peorth on Dec 27 2020, 02:30 AM

• BlackMoon on 27 Dec 20 @ 12:10 AM #

  Peorth
  Again, di ako ako electrician but from my readings tingin ko violation ng electrical code yung trabahong pinakita mo.

  
  matagal ko na gustong itanong sa yo yan nung sinagot mo mga tanong ko. kaya lang baka OT. napansin ko kasi, mga paliwanag, mga example at mga youtube video na binigay mo ay mga pang-usa. pati yung mga sinabi mo, nabsa ko din yun sa blog ng isang amerikano na nagpagawa ng bahay sa pinas.pati yung sinabi nya may line to line with neutral sa meralco, galing yun sa post nung kano. tanong ko sana dati, kung nasa pilipinas ka or us-based. may bago na akong tanong, kung di ka electrician, ano ang official na title mo or line of work? electronic technician, (kasi sabi mo di ka electrician at sumasagot ka din sa tanong tungkol sa electronics) or engineer.? sensya na ha, di ito personalan, nacurious lang kasi ako. hehe
  
  to TS. pakidelete na lang kung OT, hehe.

• Peorth on 27 Dec 20 @ 01:46 AM #

  Hindi ako based sa U.S., in fact never pa ako nakapunta dun. However, ang Meralco split-phase "line-to-line" setup is actually pretty much the same as in the U.S., the only major difference being that ang neutral dito is not used unless you're using 110 volts. In the U.S., standard voltage is 120 volts, with 240 volts being reserved for high-wattage appliances like water heaters. So technically speaking sa typical Meralco setup the neutral is used uncommonly kasi 220 volts line-to-line tayo, while sa U.S. one of the live/hot conductors naman ang hindi common na ginagamit kasi 120 volts line-to-neutral sila.
  
  With regards to references or explanations, the general principles are actually the same kahit saan ka pumunta. It's just that as with many things, stuff from the U.S. ang most commonly found. However, if you're looking up specifics you'll need to look at the Philippine Electrical Code, pwede mo siyang i-download as PDF pero around 800 pages long.
  
  Nasa medical field ako by profession pero long-time electrical hobbyist ako. Kahit na nung bata pa ako kami na nagtratrabaho sa residential wiring namin, partly because engineer ang dad ko. Interestingly, being in the medical field is exactly the reason why sanay ako magbasa ng voluminous documents at magkalkal ng knowledge from various places. Kasama na dun websites, technical publications or journals in PDF, Youtube videos, etc. Then using all of these info napie-piece ko sila together to paint a coherent picture. Of course, take everything with a grain of salt pero after reading so much I know na marami talagang wrong practices sa Pinas, like absence ng grounding, non-compliance sa local standards natin, etc.
  
  Sadly, the more you know the more you realize na yung supposed people who should know (electricians) eh most of the time ang alam lang nila hand-me-downs or "monkey see, monkey do". Hindi nila alam ang principles behind sa ginagawa nila, ang alam lang nilang gawin ang nakasanayan nila at kung anong tingin nilang diskarte, kahit pala in violation na pala ng electrical code natin.
  
  That's why I suggest na kung may ipapagawa kayong electrical work sa electrician it's best to exercise "due diligence" at magbasa/mag-research. Otherwise, wala kang idea kung ok pala ang trabaho nila. Moreover, magkakaroon ka ng confidence to insist on a particular way of doing things (e.g. choice of conduit) kesa susundin mo lang suggestion nila. Remember that sa maraming situations ang sinusuggest ng isang blue-collar worker na gawin is NOT what's good for you BUT what's good for them. In particular, ang work na pinaka-least effort. So let's say na kahit rigid conduit ang dapat gamitin mag-iinsist na flexible na lang kasi mas madali ang trabaho. Alternatively, sa people na walang tiyaga to do their research ang tingin kong best bet would be to find a licensed electrician working sa commercial and industrial fields, dahil mas stringent ang requirements/compliance dito I would like to think na mas reliable sila sa run-of-the-mill electrician na sobrang hit-and-miss ang quality ng trabaho.
  
  -- edited by Peorth on Dec 27 2020, 02:05 AM

• KSolomon on 01 Jan 21 @ 06:31 PM #

  Good evening, pasabi na lang po if nasa wrong thread ako
  
  Meron po kaming Westing House na Ceiling Fan kagaya po nung picture sa baba yung model. Around June lang po siya nabili and ngayon po parang medyo humihina na po yung ikot niya, 5 level po yung knob niya and hindi na po siya umiikot pag naka select sa 1 and 2, bale sa 3 lang po siya nag sstart umikot. Any idea po kung ano sira nito? Unfortunately di naitago ng parents ko yung resibo kaya di na namin magagamit warranty niya :(
  
  
  

• statix on 01 Jan 21 @ 09:32 PM #

  @KSolomon
  
  since may kabaguhan pa yan kaya pwede i-ruled out ang bushing/lubrication issue.
  tho typical sign of starting capacitor failure din iyan.

• Peorth on 01 Jan 21 @ 09:33 PM #

  Since bago lang ang fan, unlikely na issue yan with worn-down bearings or dirt. That leaves two possibilities, may sira ang winding ng motor or yung capacitor(s). Most likely yung latter, yung fan control circuit board meron yan one or more capacitors na mas likely masira kesa yung winding ng motor. Pag nasira ang capacitor(s) mabagal or hindi tatakbo ang fan completely. Patignan mo sa mga appliance repair shops, kahit yung mga nasa roadside lang, most likely kaya nila i-diagnose and repair yan.
  
  -- edited by Peorth on Jan 02 2021, 01:45 PM

• inspirasian on 02 Jan 21 @ 12:20 PM #

  Hi guys.
  
  During inspection of one of the rooms my family rents out, napansin ko na ang isang non-grounded 2 flat pin wall outlet ay parang sunog. Medyo natunaw ang itsura at itim ang isa sa saksakan niya. I wish to seek your wisdom as to what may have caused this because the renter responsible for this damage is long gone. Dati pa pala ganito yung wall outlet at hinayaan lang. Ilang renters na din ang tumira dito since. Infuriating because of the implications this may have for safety.
  
  Could this have been a result of a power surge from something like overloading or lightning? Or is it something as simple as incorrectly plugging a 110v appliance to it? I am under the assumption that doing so would break the appliance but not the outlet.
  
  For this problem is the possible remedy going to be a simple replacement of the wall outlet or will it have to involve laying out a new set of wires? Probably difficult to do a clean job without retrofitting, but I’m concerned for this particular wall outlet.
  
  Unsure if it’s a power surge because I’m not well-versed in how power surges “chooses” what to damage. I remember reading before that lighting surges, for one, travels and looks for earth. Something about this making appliances like refrigerators more susceptible.
  
  In relation to the question above, what happens when a surge travels and the house it travels to is a mix of grounded and non-grounded wall outlets. Is the surge more likely to target the grounded wall outlet since it redirects the surge to earth?
  
  -- edited by inspirasian on Jan 02 2021, 12:42 PM

• Peorth on 02 Jan 21 @ 03:01 PM #

  During inspection of one of the rooms my family rents out, napansin ko na ang isang non-grounded 2 flat pin wall outlet ay parang sunog. Medyo natunaw ang itsura at itim ang isa sa saksakan niya. I wish to seek your wisdom as to what may have caused this because the renter responsible for this damage is long gone. Dati pa pala ganito yung wall outlet at hinayaan lang. Ilang renters na din ang tumira dito since. Infuriating because of the implications this may have for safety.
  
  Could this have been a result of a power surge from something like overloading or lightning? Or is it something as simple as incorrectly plugging a 110v appliance to it? I am under the assumption that doing so would break the appliance but not the outlet.
  

  
  May several possibilities pag damaged ang convenience outlet na may natunaw at itim na burn marks:
  1. Nagkaroon ng short circuit sa socket dahil faulty na siya mismo.
  2. Yung plug ng appliance or device na sinaksak sa outlet ay defective at doon nagkaroon ng short circuit.
  3. Baka may sinaksak na power strip or multi-socket extension cord tapos nagplug ng several high-wattage devices na ginamit simultaneously. Dahil dito, na overload ang capacity ng receptacle (typically 10 amps at 250 volts which is equal to 2,500 volt-amperes).
  4. Yung plug na sinaksak may defect so that loose ang contact ng plug blades with the socket, dahil dito pwede magkaroon ng arcing (arc fault) which is very hot and is actually #1 cause ng electrical fires.
  
  Note that for the first three scenarios, OVERLOAD and nangyayari while the last one is a different phenomenon altogether na less commonly known compared sa overload. Kung long enough ang overload dapat nag-trip ang circuit breaker or natunaw ang fuse. For appliance circuits, this should be rated at 20 amperes or less. For the arcing, only an arc fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) will protect against it and very rare ang usage niyan sa Pinas.
  
  Yung pagplug na 110 volt appliance tingin ko unlikely because generally ang nasisira would be yung wiring/components ng 110-volt appliance. Pag nangyari to pwede mapuputol ang flow ng current so that pwedeng hindi man enough ang overload to trip and circuit breaker or melt ang fuse.
  
  Regarding lightning, in my opinion highly unlikely yan. Hindi kasi selective ang lightning, kung lightning ang cause ng damage sa outlet then dapat most (if not all) ng other outlets would be damaged too dahil electrically continuous ang wiring ng bahay. Given the huge current and voltage na lightning strike, expected na hindi lang localized to one outlet ang damage.
  
  

  For this problem is the possible remedy going to be a simple replacement of the wall outlet or will it have to involve laying out a new set of wires? Probably difficult to do a clean job without retrofitting, but I’m concerned for this particular wall outlet.

  
  
  Regarding remedy, overloads na-interrupt ng tripping ng circuit breaker or melting ng fuse doesn't require replacement ng outlet wiring. That's because these overcurrent protection devices are designed to trip/melt first before ma-damage ang wiring. Kung lightning, ibang usapan yan, it's likely that yung wiring ng buong bahay kailangan palitan.
  
  

  Unsure if it’s a power surge because I’m not well-versed in how power surges “chooses” what to damage. I remember reading before that lighting surges, for one, travels and looks for earth. Something about this making appliances like refrigerators more susceptible.
  
  In relation to the question above, what happens when a surge travels and the house it travels to is a mix of grounded and non-grounded wall outlets. Is the surge more likely to target the grounded wall outlet since it redirects the surge to earth?
  

  
  
  Regarding power surges and lightning, note that these are completely different things in terms of magnitude. Ang voltage surge is much lower in magnitude and pwede siyang internal or external source. Example of internal would be a large motor turning on or off affecting the mains voltage, while an example of an external source would be after a power interruption pag nag-on ang power bigla. For the latter, you can protect against it with surge suppressors pero useless yan for lightning strikes. The only real protection for lightning is a true lightning protection system composed of lightning rods, grounds, etc.
  
  For the lightning path, it will travel pretty much everwhere pero preferentially kung saan may ground. In other words, it will travel preferentially sa path of lesser resistance. Because because enormous ang voltage at current ng lightning strike, kahit may grounded paths na available pwede parin siya tumalon even sa relatively high-resistance path. For example, ang air is considered a poor conductor pero during a lightning strike pwede parin magkaroon ng long arc (spark) from one outlet to another or to another object.
  
  For surges, same naman ang behavior (goes to lesser resistance) pero if you think about it, may malaking difference with a lightning strike. For a lightning strike, the voltage/current is high enough to overcome air resistance and cause arcing, so that an appliance na may grounded metal body can preferentially conduct the lightning through arcing. For surges, hindi high enough and voltage/current to cause arcing so that walang impact ang presence ng ground. Remember na electrically discontinous ang AC current-carrying lines (line-line or line-neutral) from the ground. This means na hindi magaabsorb ang ground ng surge na travelling along the current-currying AC lines UNLESS may some form of connection ang dalawa. This only happens in two scenarios, namely 1) may ground fault, meaning accidentally touching ang live conductor sa ground, e.g. may live wire na exposed touching the metal body of an appliance, which is grounded via yung grounding prong 2) May surge suppressor bridging the ground and current-carrying line(s)
  
  For the latter pay attention to the documentation ng surge suppressor. Kung ok ang documentation niya it will state yung protection in terms of joules plus which lines are protected. A common way of writing would be "L-L", "L-G", "N-G" where L is live, N is neutral and G is ground (sometimes instead of "G" "ang ginagamit ay PE", which is protective earth, same as ground). So if may L-G and/or N-G protection ang suppressor, you know there is a surge suppression device (typically metal oxide varistor or MOV) bridging the live line to the ground and the neutral line to the ground. Pag nagkaroon ng voltage surge high enough to trigger yung clamping voltage ng MOV, magko-conduct yung MOV, thereby dumping the surge into the ground. Pag may L-L MOV part of the surge will be dumped into the live lines too, protecting the devices plugged sa suppressor. That's why you need to use a surge suppressor with a ground. Kung may L-L/L-G/N-G protection siya, if you don't use a ground onlyy the L-L will function and it will cut yung protection rating significantly.
  
  In other words, if walang problem ang electrical system ng bahay (walang ground fault), surges will only travel preferentially to a grounded socket na may surge suppressor na nakaplug-in. The voltage of the surge must be high enough to reach the clamping voltage ng MOV, so that the MOV will become electrically conductive forming a path between the current-carrying line and the ground.
  
  -- edited by Peorth on Jan 02 2021, 03:08 PM

• baysil2000 on 02 Jan 21 @ 04:08 PM #

  Ano po pde issue ng crackilng sound ng subwoofer? Ok naman supply tested with similar model. 2.1 speaker sya. May mga times na sumasagitsit at crack sound yung sub. Try to sana i diy check and repair yung sub. Minsan parang tunig nag piprito. Hehe at crack crack sound. Parang tunog ng nag test ka ng speaker using battery. Kung sa kuryente parang nag papa spark ka ng dalawang wire by shortening them. Ty

• inspirasian on 02 Jan 21 @ 04:21 PM #

  Thank you. I'll double check the outlet again and see if I missed anything last time.
  
  

  For appliance circuits, this should be rated at 20 amperes or less. For the arcing, only an arc fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) will protect against it and very rare ang usage niyan sa Pinas.

  
  Is AFCI already availably locally? If memory serves me right kasi I think PEC redacted the requirement or revised it due to perceived incompatibility with Philippine specs. Last I heard they were in the process of manufacturing AFCIs suitable for Philippine spec or so along those lines. Not sure if those things they spoke of are out now.
  
  

  Regarding lightning, in my opinion highly unlikely yan. Hindi kasi selective ang lightning, kung lightning ang cause ng damage sa outlet then dapat most (if not all) ng other outlets would be damaged too dahil electrically continuous ang wiring ng bahay. Given the huge current and voltage na lightning strike, expected na hindi lang localized to one outlet ang damage.

  
  If my understanding is correct, in the very unfortunate event of a lightning strike, nearly all lines (if not all) are affected which is why all wiring will need replacing? So bale for example, lahat ng wirings connected sa lahat ng circuit breakers present sa bahay ay sira?
  
  Let's say some of the outlets in a house is properly grounded, are those exempted from damage during said lightning strike? Making it so the wires that are damaged are only those without grounding?
  
  It makes sense kasi I was told that no surge protectors can protect against lightning strikes which is apparently 5k to 20k amps on average. One of the few things that can protect against it daw would probably be a whole house surge protector rated at 50k amps or so, but it still wouldn't be enough for surges that can go beyond 50k. But at that point one may even the odds and try his luck at the lottery to recoup his losses to that kind of lightning strike...
  
  

  This only happens in two scenarios, namely 1) may ground fault, meaning accidentally touching ang live conductor sa ground, e.g. may live wire na exposed touching the metal body of an appliance, which is grounded via yung grounding prong

  
  Sorry for this potentially dumb question, pero is ground fault a problem that exists in a house with no presence of grounding? If it's not a problem, what's the problem that replaces it?
  
  Or is the absence of a ground in itself a grounding fault?
  
  

  A common way of writing would be "L-L", "L-G", "N-G" where L is live, N is neutral and G is ground (sometimes instead of "G" "ang ginagamit ay PE", which is protective earth, same as ground). So if may L-G and/or N-G protection ang suppressor, you know there is a surge suppression device (typically metal oxide varistor or MOV) bridging the live line to the ground and the neutral line to the ground. Pag nagkaroon ng voltage surge high enough to trigger yung clamping voltage ng MOV, magko-conduct yung MOV, thereby dumping the surge into the ground. Pag may L-L MOV part of the surge will be dumped into the live lines too, protecting the devices plugged sa suppressor. That's why you need to use a surge suppressor with a ground. Kung may L-L/L-G/N-G protection siya, if you don't use a ground onlyy the L-L will function and it will cut yung protection rating significantly.

  
  This makes sense. I always wondered why there are surge protectors without a ground prong (Akari and Panther sells a few) and both manufacturers swear that those surge protectors does protect. I guess the leniency in advertising laws lets them get away with this. I suppose those surge protectors are no different from surge protectors with a grounded plug attached to a cheater plug.
  
  

  In other words, if walang problem ang electrical system ng bahay (walang ground fault), surges will only travel preferentially to a grounded socket na may surge suppressor na nakaplug-in. The voltage of the surge must be high enough to reach the clamping voltage ng MOV, so that the MOV will become electrically conductive forming a path between the current-carrying line and the ground.

  
  I see, pero what if a laptop charger is plugged in to a grounded outlet directly and not through a surge suppressor/protector is there any danger to this? I'm curious because from what I read MOV is basically consumable, and most people suggest not keeping a surge protector for too long because should it have ever experienced a surge (which is near-unlikely to know) it's 'used up' and at that point is no better than a regular power strip. I'm undecided if it's still worth stressing over surge protectors and spending good money on name brands like APC or even Belkin. Though Belkin has soured on me a bit because of their dubious warranty claims.
  
  To clarify since you mention that a grounded outlet with a surge suppressor plugged in is more conducive to lightning, what if it's a grounded outlet without a surge suppressor and instead an appliance is plugged directly? Is the conductivity still the same or is it less? From my understanding kasi of your post it wouldn't be as conductive since MOV itself is what makes the outlet more conductive.
  
  Just a bit confused if a grounded outlet in itself already protects an appliance because in theory any excess voltage is redirected to the ground, then what kind of extra protection does a surge suppressor with MOV introduce other than added conductivity? Potentially protect other non-grounded outlets by trying to attract the surge away from them?
  
  -- edited by inspirasian on Jan 02 2021, 05:12 PM

• KSolomon on 02 Jan 21 @ 06:35 PM #

  @statix and @peorth, noted mga sirs, thank you

• Peorth on 03 Jan 21 @ 12:19 AM #

  Is AFCI already availably locally? If memory serves me right kasi I think PEC redacted the requirement or revised it due to perceived incompatibility with Philippine specs. Last I heard they were in the process of manufacturing AFCIs suitable for Philippine spec or so along those lines. Not sure if those things they spoke of are out now.

  
  
  I haven't found any AFCI sold locally from searches. I have a copy of the PEC but I'm not sure if it's the latest one, in the one I have there are a few entries regarding it. If it was redacted, I'm not sure. If it was, maybe it's because it's hard to comply with it rather than specs. The power distribution here isn't much different from other countries so I'm not convinced that we need a custom-spec'd AFCI for Philippine power systems. I could be wrong though.
  
  

  If my understanding is correct, in the very unfortunate event of a lightning strike, nearly all lines (if not all) are affected which is why all wiring will need replacing? So bale for example, lahat ng wirings connected sa lahat ng circuit breakers present sa bahay ay sira?
  
  Let's say some of the outlets in a house is properly grounded, are those exempted from damage during said lightning strike? Making it so the wires that are damaged are only those without grounding?
  
  It makes sense kasi I was told that no surge protectors can protect against lightning strikes which is apparently 5k to 20k amps on average. One of the few things that can protect against it daw would probably be a whole house surge protector rated at 50k amps or so, but it still wouldn't be enough for surges that can go beyond 50k. But at that point one may even the odds and try his luck at the lottery to recoup his losses to that kind of lightning strike...

  
  
  You can look for images of lightning damage to residential wiring online and it fries pretty much everything because of the immense current and voltage. Once that magnitude of current/voltage travels along the residential wiring it can melt the insulation because of the heat, if not the copper wire itself. You can't bet on grounding to avoid damage because all that current has to go somewhere, which includes ungrounded sockets. Since most residential wiring is embedded in conduits, you can't visually inspect the integrity of the wiring. That's why the safest thing to do is to replace everything.
  
  To mitigate lightning damage, your best bet is to prevent the lighting strike from hitting the house itself by putting a lightning protection system. Fortunately, most houses don't require such stuff because there are many things that lightning will hit preferentially, like tall trees, transmission towers, higher buildings etc. There are exceptions though, like a solo house on a hill with no high trees. I've read of such a situation here in the Philippines where someone's house got hit by lightning because of these circumstances.
  
  

  Sorry for this potentially dumb question, pero is ground fault a problem that exists in a house with no presence of grounding? If it's not a problem, what's the problem that replaces it?
  
  Or is the absence of a ground in itself a grounding fault?

  
  
  It's not a dumb question, hindi ko lang na explain ng mabuti hehe. When you say there's a ground fault it means that a current-carrying conductor (a "hot" or "live" line) comes into contact with the ground, and the ground diverts the current as it should. A simple example would be a metal lamp that has an electrical cord that has frayed at where it enters the base. The exposed copper wiring comes into contact with the metal body of the lamp, so that someone touching the lamp will get a shock because the current will flow from the wire, to the metal body, then to the person's hand then down his or her feet towards the floor. However, if the lamp is grounded, then most of the current will flow to the ground instead of the person because the ground is a lower resistance path. That's why a ground is a safety feature to prevent electrical shock. Ideally, all appliances or devices with a metal body should have a three-prong (grounded) plug because a live line touching the body will electrify it. Other stuff like washing machines should also be grounded, even if the whole thing is plastic because the water in the washing tub can potentially conduct electricity.
  
  However, the best protection to prevent electrocution is to install a ground fault circuit interrupter (GFCI), which is available locally as GFCI receptacles (sockets) or panel-mounted ones. It senses an imbalance between the supply and return path of the current and cuts off the power when there's an imbalance. This imbalance, called leakage current, is the one flowing from the live line towards the ground when there is a ground fault, or flowing towards a person if there is no ground installed. GFCI sockets can be readily found in the bathrooms of higher-end hotels in the Philippines, they look like ordinary convenience outlets but have two push buttons (test and reset). In the copy of the PEC that I have, there are a lot of entries about where GFCIs have mandatory installation. These are basically wet areas like bathrooms, poolside, near fountains etc. where water will increase shock hazard by decreasing electrical resistance.
  
  

  This makes sense. I always wondered why there are surge protectors without a ground prong (Akari and Panther sells a few) and both manufacturers swear that those surge protectors does protect. I guess the leniency in advertising laws lets them get away with this. I suppose those surge protectors are no different from surge protectors with a grounded plug attached to a cheater plug.

  
  
  Those surge protectors are a joke. True surge protectors always have have a grounding prong, because that's the best place to divert the surge. Second, they must have an indicator light that tells if the protection circuitry is still working. MOVs can only absorb so much surges, then they die leaving the protector as a glorified power strip. The APC surge protectors I've seen that are locally available consistently have an indicator light and a ground light (which turns on if there is a working ground), one model even has an overload light. Unfortunately, all the people I've seen that bought these from online platforms and posted pics all had the ground light off, meaning they were plugged in an outlet without a ground (common sa Pinas!) and were probably unaware that the surge protection function is severely diminished without a ground. BTW, a cheater plug is fine to use if the tab for the grounding prong is actually connected to a ground. It's fairly easy to jury-rig a grounding rod using galvanized iron or steel pipe.
  
  

  I see, pero what if a laptop charger is plugged in to a grounded outlet directly and not through a surge suppressor/protector is there any danger to this? I'm curious because from what I read MOV is basically consumable, and most people suggest not keeping a surge protector for too long because should it have ever experienced a surge (which is near-unlikely to know) it's 'used up' and at that point is no better than a regular power strip. I'm undecided if it's still worth stressing over surge protectors and spending good money on name brands like APC or even Belkin. Though Belkin has soured on me a bit because of their dubious warranty claims.

  
  
  I rarely use a laptop with a surge protector because it's a hassle to always carry one around. Maybe I'd use one if the regulation of the AC mains supply is really bad, which is rare for cities and urbanized areas but more common in places like small islands where power generation is spotty.
  
  For the surge protector, stick with APC. Their surge protectors are quite cheap (1.1 to 1.5k, with latter having a higher protection rating in joules) and they have an absurdly long 10-year warranty. Best of all, you always know if the MOVs are still alive or dead because of the indicator light.
  
  

  To clarify since you mention that a grounded outlet with a surge suppressor plugged in is more conducive to lightning, what if it's a grounded outlet without a surge suppressor and instead an appliance is plugged directly? Is the conductivity still the same or is it less? From my understanding kasi of your post it wouldn't be as conductive since MOV itself is what makes the outlet more conductive.

  
  
  Technically speaking, the preference of a surge to go to an unprotected appliance or the surge suppressor is essentially the same until the moment when the surge peaks high enough to hit the MOV's clamping voltage. Once the MOV closes ("shorts'), the AC line connects to the ground via the L-G and N-G MOVs and a low-resistance path will be created causing a surge to flow there. Note however that this doesn't mean you have reliable protection for those appliances because a surge protector is placed somewhere else. For this to happen the appliance must be wired in parallel behind the MOVs, which happens when you plug a device in a surge suppressor.
  
  

  Just a bit confused if a grounded outlet in itself already protects an appliance because in theory any excess voltage is redirected to the ground, then what kind of extra protection does a surge suppressor with MOV introduce other than added conductivity? Protecting other non-grounded outlets?

  
  
  Actually a grounded outlet offers zero protection against a voltage surge because the ground and live lines are always disconnected (there is no electrical continuity). If there is a surge, everything goes into the appliance and nothing goes into the ground. That's why you need a surge suppressor to create that live-to-ground connection when a surge arises. The only time a live-to-ground connection happens (excluding the surge suppressor scenario) is when a ground fault occurs, like I mentioned earlier with a live line touching the metal body of a device, and this metal body grounded via the plug's third prong. This is not a normal condition and it must be fixed, if you have a GFCI installed this will cause the breaker to trip.
  
  For lightning, it's a different matter. With the tremendous voltage/current of the strike, lighting traveling along the live lines will easily jump the small air gap separating the live and ground terminals of sockets. The arc from a socket can even be long as several feet and hit another object or another socket, as reported by anecdotes of those who experienced direct lightning strikes within their homes.

• Peorth on 03 Jan 21 @ 12:29 AM #

  Ano po pde issue ng crackilng sound ng subwoofer? Ok naman supply tested with similar model. 2.1 speaker sya. May mga times na sumasagitsit at crack sound yung sub. Try to sana i diy check and repair yung sub. Minsan parang tunig nag piprito. Hehe at crack crack sound. Parang tunog ng nag test ka ng speaker using battery. Kung sa kuryente parang nag papa spark ka ng dalawang wire by shortening them. Ty

  
  
  You can try inspecting the sub driver itself for physical damage, e.g. cracking of the diaphragm, damage to the suspension etc. For the electronics, I think the most DIY you can easily do is to look at the components to look for stuff like bloated caps or burned components. If there's no obvious problem I suggest having the amplifier checked, an electronics repairman used to working with stereos and amps can likely figure out if there's a problem in the amplifier section driving the subwoofer.

• baysil2000 on 03 Jan 21 @ 01:57 AM #

  @Peorth
  
  Thanks much sir, di naman consistent yung crackling sound nalabas siya every few seconds. Will follow your advise. thanks again

• KSolomon on 03 Jan 21 @ 04:57 PM #

  Good afternoon ulit mga sirs,
  
  Nasira po yung microwave namin kanina, mga ilang years na rin po siya pero hindi madalas nagagamit dati ng tita ko, bale binigay siya sa amin nung June na sira yung magnetron, pinagawa namin siya then after a month po ata nasira yung fuse niya, ginawa naman po siya nung dating nagpalit ng magnetron ng libre. Then today po prang nasira po ata ulit yung magnetron niya kasi nag oon naman siya pero hindi umiinit. Sa opinyon niyo ba mga sirs, pagawa ko pa? iniisip ko kasi baka maging sakit niya na yun eh haha Ty

• Peorth on 03 Jan 21 @ 05:24 PM #

  Suggest ko to "move on" na and buy a new microwave. Posible kasi na hindi lang ang magnetron ang may sira. For example, baka yung board na nagko-control ng magnetron ay may sira na. That's why mabilis nasira ang replacement magnetron. Kung nasira ang fuse baka related yan sa possibility na yung magnetron operating beyond yung kaya niya dahil sa faulty regulation. Masyado malakas ang current na hinahatak ng magnetron kaya natunaw ang fuse. Safety issue narin yan, so better to retire it and buy a new one.
  
  -- edited by Peorth on Jan 03 2021, 05:25 PM

• genyou on 05 Jan 21 @ 12:22 AM #

  Mr. Peorth, thank you po for your last response. Sorry I couldn't reply until now kasi ngayon ko lang po ito naasikaso ulit.
  
  Nakakadismaya na nalaman ko na di gumagana ang grounding na ginawa dito. Same outlet po na pinakita ko in the prev. page. Turns out tama ang hinala ko na hindi proper grounding yung ginawa nila na simpleng pag-screw ng ground wire sa panel board na in the first place ay hindi grounded. Nalaman ko dahil meron ako bagong surge protector na may indicator light sa ground, at hindi ito umiilaw. Supposedly fire hazard na nga, pati pala yung grounding which is ang pinaka importante na inulit ulit ko sa kanila hindi pala gumagana... sigh. Parang ang kinalabasan nagpakabit lang ako ng 3-prong outlet na dalawa ang wire.
  
  As for the kind of line we have, by any chance line-to-line po ba ito? Basically all of our outlets and switches have 2 red wires and I was told na interchangeable siya. Before this I was afraid to switch out our outlets kasi ang akala ko petiks yung ginawa ng original contractor ng bahay at ginawang red lahat ng wiring imbes na magkaiba tulad ng mga madaming article na nakikita ko na iba ang kulay ng wiring.
  
  

  Going back to grounding, ikaw na lang gumawa at malamang mas matino pa trabahong gagawin mo. Bili ka ng 3/4" (21 mm) galvanized iron or steel pipe, minimum length of 2.4 meters pero pwede mo pasobrahin, e.g. 3 meters. At one end, drill a hole and put a bolt and screw to secure yung ground wire. Alternatively, buy a commercial grounding rod which conforms to yung PEC specs. Wire the ground wire to the grounding rod, then ilatag papuntang service panel, screw to metal case of service panel and using the same screw pwede na i-connect yung ground papuntan sockets. Kung maraming ground wires, better to install a separate busbar. For the neutral, don't forget na dapat bonded rin siya sa ground sa service panel.

  
  Since realising hindi gumagana yung ground dito, I tried to look up more on how to build a proper ground by your suggestion. In particular meron po ako nakita na video, pero in case na napanuod niyo na po ito dati tama po ba ang mga procedure na ginawa dito? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=04dR2cNDTXM&t=658s
  
  From what I understand the panel board has either a terminal lug or a bonding screw. Not sure yet if the screw in my panel board is a bonding screw. Pero ang detalye na na-enganyo ako ay yung grounding wire niya. Dalawa. Isa patungo sa lupa which is kung saan yung grounding rod niya, at isa papunta sa meter and presumable connected sa grounding provided ni Meralco.
  
  Yung electrician kasi na gumawa ng grounding outlet ko, maliban sa isa niya suggestion na i-extend ang ground wire ko papunta sa ground rod ng Meralco sa poste, ang isa niya gusto ko gawin ay tingnan kung nasaan yung "white wire" na pumasok sa meter namin. Yun po daw kasi ang grounding wire ni Meralco. Plano po niya ata iconnect doon yung grounding wire ng outlet imbes na sa panel board naka screw. Pero yun nga lang nalilito pa din ako sa sinabi niya kasi may binangit din siya na "disconnected" and ground namin at tinuro yung itaas ng poste kung nasaan ang mga wires. Nakita ata niya na "disconnected" at itawag ko daw sa Meralco. So not sure if this will impede my plan to make a ground using a grounding rod of my own.
  
  Medyo amusing lang kasi nung una akala ko yung mga indicator light for ground ng mga surge protector ay di reliable, na baka umilaw siya kahit di tama ang grounding basta nakakabit ang wire sa bakal tulad ng panel board. Pero fortunately hindi ganun at nalaman ko na walang saysay ang grounding. Better this way than a false sense of security.
  
  Nakakapagod lang talaga i-process lahat ng nangyari so far kasi importante talaga sa akin na tama ang trabaho dahil matagal na ako may irrational fear pag dating sa electrical. Safety din kasi ang rason ko sa pagpakabit ng grounded outlet, pero so far mukhang hindi ako sinusuwerte sa mga nahahanap ko na gagawa.
  
  -- edited by genyou on Jan 05 2021, 12:42 AM

• Peorth on 05 Jan 21 @ 03:04 AM #

  As for the kind of line we have, by any chance line-to-line po ba ito? Basically all of our outlets and switches have 2 red wires and I was told na interchangeable siya. Before this I was afraid to switch out our outlets kasi ang akala ko petiks yung ginawa ng original contractor ng bahay at ginawang red lahat ng wiring imbes na magkaiba tulad ng mga madaming article na nakikita ko na iba ang kulay ng wiring.

  
  
  Kung tama ang color-coding ng wires, ang line-to-line pareho ang kulay ng live/hot wires (e.g. both red or black), kung line-to-neutral dapat iba ang kulay ng live at neutral. Pero huwag ka mag-rely diyan dahil hindi mo alam ang quality ng trabaho na ginawa noon. Para malaman mo kung ano yung supply niyo, simple lang. Punta ka sa labas ng bahay at tignan mo yung service drop. Eto yung wires mula sa poste na nagsu-supply ng kuryente sa bahay niyo:
  
  Eto ang itsura ng "line-to-line" na supply:
  
  
  Remember, tatlo ang wire ng line-to-line supply:
  1. Hot/live - insulated copper cable = 1 "line"
  2. Hot/live - insulated copper cable = 1 "line"
  3. Neutral - not insulated (bare) aluminum cable
  
  Yung bare aluminum cable ng service drop ay tinatawag na neutral. Dalawa ang purpose niya: 1) structural - provide structural support for the two hot wires na nakapalupot around it so that hindi sila under tension or load-bearing 2) electrical. Ang neutral wire ay bonded to grounding rods at multiple points, typically kada poste may grounding rod na bonded sa neutral aluminum cable. Nagte-terminate yan sa distribution (step-down) transformer na nagsu-supply ng 220 volts sa neighborhood. In particular, nakadikit yan sa center tap ng transformer. Ang other end niyan (yung sa bahay) naka-bond sa copper wire, tapos ang copper wire na yan pumapasok sa service cap or weatherhead kasabay nung dalawang live wires (neutral kulay YELLOW sa picture, hot yung kulay BLACK). Ang copper wire na to ang nagbibigay ng neutral sa buong bahay, kasi siya ang continuation nung aluminum cable electrically.
  
  For more details, go back one page at basahin mo yung mahabang post ko na may date at time na 10 Nov 20 @ 04:50 PM.
  
  Note na ang ganitong supply ang default ng Meralco, although may reference akong nabasa na may iba daw na installation ang Meralco na hindi umaabot ang neutral sa transformer. Sa amin sure na umaabot kasi sinundan ko wiring namin from bahay until transformer sa dulo ng street!
  
  Bakit nga ba tinawag na "line-to-line"? Kasi to get 220 volts (default voltage sa Pinas), kailangan mo i-connect ang appliance or device dun sa 2 live ("line") wires (isipin mo na each live wire ay 110 volts). Eh paano kung mag-wire ka ng isang live wire at yung neutral sa wall socket? Then makakakuha ka ng 110 volts. Kasi ang neutral ay zero volts, ang live ay 110 volts. Kung two live wires: 110 volts x 2 = 220 volts. Ganun lang kasimple! Kaya ang advantage ng line-to-line installation with a true neutral (neutral goes back to the transformer's center tap) ay pwede ka mag-wire ng genuine 110 volt outlet if ever kailangan mo.
  
  Eto naman ang itsura ng "line-to-neutral":
  
  
  Dalawa lang ang wire ng line-to-neutral:
  1. Hot/live - insulated copper cable = "line"
  2. Neutral - not insulated, aluminum cable
  
  Ang line-to-neutral ang pinaka-common supply scheme sa provinces (i.e. non-Meralco). Ang voltage ng hot/live line is 220 volts. That's why pag nag-wire ka nung neutral (zero volts) at live (220 volts) sa wall socket 220 volts ang makukuha mo. Ang disadvantage ng line-to-neutral is that to get 110 volts kailangan mo gumamit ng step-down transformer.
  
  Bago tayo mag move on sa line-to-line (L-L) at line-to-neutral (L-N), tandaan na may important distinction sa circuit breakers for these two schemes. Pag L-L ang breakers ay double-pole, pag L-N single pole:
  
  
  
  
  Yung reason bakit double-pole breakers ang ginagamit sa L-L is because hot/live ang both wires, so that pag naka-off ang breaker dapat i-disconnect (off) niya BOTH wires. Kung isang wire lang ang disconnected, mago-off nga ang appliance/device pero yung other wire live parin at makukuryente ka pag hinawakan mo. Pag L-N, isang wire lang ang hot/live (remember neutral is always zero volts!) so that yun lang ang kailangan i-disconnect ng breaker at safe na ang circuit.
  
  

  Since realising hindi gumagana yung ground dito, I tried to look up more on how to build a proper ground by your suggestion. In particular meron po ako nakita na video, pero in case na napanuod niyo na po ito dati tama po ba ang mga procedure na ginawa dito? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=04dR2cNDTXM&t=658s

  
  
  Tama naman ang video EXCEPT for one thing. Confused siya dun sa galing sa electric company/Meralco. Tulad ng sinabi ko before HINDI nagpro-provide ng GROUND ang Meralco! Ang green wire na tumatakbo sa gitna nung kuntador (kulay green) ay yung NEUTRAL copper wire na bonded sa aluminum cable. Yan ang issue ko sa mga videos na to, ok naman sila as a general guide pero hindi sila 100% correct at dahil dun nagpapakalat sila ng maling information.
  
  Dahil sa misconception ni kuya electrician, mali ang color-coding niya sa video. Ang neutral wire sa electric meter dapat hindi green kasi yan ang standard color ng ground. Dapat pinili niya white, which is the standard color for neutral. Tapos, kung pinakita niya ang wiring ng 110 volts, makikita mo na yung neutral from the meter same color as yung neutral papuntang socket. Sa video, 220 volts lang ang pinakita niya so that 3 wires lang ang pinakita niya: live, live, ground.
  
  Lastly, ang neutral na papasok sa bahay ay grounded sa electric posts pero HINDI ibig sabihin nito na pwede mo siya gamitin na source na ground. Dapat may independent ground ang bahay, supplied by a grounding rod or rods or something else (like rebar ng concrete foundation). Tama ang video in showing a separate ground wire, though sa discussion nalito siya in saying may "ground" galing Meralco.
  
  

  From what I understand the panel board has either a terminal lug or a bonding screw. Not sure yet if the screw in my panel board is a bonding screw. Pero ang detalye na na-enganyo ako ay yung grounding wire niya. Dalawa. Isa patungo sa lupa which is kung saan yung grounding rod niya, at isa papunta sa meter and presumable connected sa grounding provided ni Meralco.

  
  
  Doesn't really matter kung ano nasa panel as long as tama ang electrical continuity. Ang best actually is to have a separate ground busbar, which is a long rectangular metal bar with holes and screws:
  
  
  
  (neutral busbar on the left (white wires), ground busbar on the right (green wires)
  
  Kung grounded lahat ng sockets mo sa bahay at marami sila then hindi kakasya sa isang screw or lug ang lahat ng wires, that's why you need a busbar. For neutral, ideal rin pero less and requirement kasi madalang mag-wire ng 110 volt outlets sa Pinas. Kung konti lang sockets na may ground, then ok lang to use a single screw or lug.
  
  Note na sa service panel ang GROUND and NEUTRAL ay bonded together. Kung two busbars yan, may metal bar connecting the two. Kung walang busbars, yung neutral wire connected sa ground wire using a common screw. Eto yung only place sa buong bahay na may connected together and ground and neutral.
  
  

  Yung electrician kasi na gumawa ng grounding outlet ko, maliban sa isa niya suggestion na i-extend ang ground wire ko papunta sa ground rod ng Meralco sa poste, ang isa niya gusto ko gawin ay tingnan kung nasaan yung "white wire" na pumasok sa meter namin. Yun po daw kasi ang grounding wire ni Meralco. Plano po niya ata iconnect doon yung grounding wire ng outlet imbes na sa panel board naka screw. Pero yun nga lang nalilito pa din ako sa sinabi niya kasi may binangit din siya na "disconnected" and ground namin at tinuro yung itaas ng poste kung nasaan ang mga wires. Nakita ata niya na "disconnected" at itawag ko daw sa Meralco. So not sure if this will impede my plan to make a ground using a grounding rod of my own.

  
  
  Yung white wire na yan is yung NEUTRAL, in fact WHITE ang standard color ng neutral. Again HINDI siya "GROUNDING" ng Meralco. Ang grounding ay provided ng grounding system ng bahay (e.g. grounding rod), not by the electric company. Yung neutral wire goes up to the service cap/weatherhead, exits it, then bonded siya sa aluminum cable kung saan nakapalupot yung live wires. Hindi ko alam kung anong pinagsasabi sayo na "disconnected" pero ganito lang yan. As long as the neutral copper wire exiting yung service cap is SPLICED together sa aluminum cable (may metal crimp connecting the two) then hindi yan disconnected sa end niyo. Kung disconnected yan beyond your house is another issue. Kung gusto mo pwede mo i-trace yung path ng neutral aluminum cable niyo. Dapat naka-bond yan to a larger aluminum cable na nakalatag between yung electric poles, eto yung main supply ng NEUTRAL going sa lahat ng houses supplied by the distribution transformer. Kung gusto mo silipin mo lahat yung bonding points, pati yung grounding rods ng poste dapat naka-bond dun sa main aluminum neutral going between posts. This main neutral should terminate sa transformer:
  
  
  
  
  Note na may three wires yung distribution transformer. Left wire is hot, middle wire is neutral, right wire is hot. See how yung middle wire is bonded to the main aluminum cable neutral with a metal block. Eto yung same cable kung saan nakakabit yung smaller aluminum cable ng service drop niyo, then magiging neutral siya (white wire) na papasok sa bahay.
  
  -- edited by Peorth on Jan 05 2021, 03:17 AM

• genyou on 05 Jan 21 @ 09:54 AM #

  Thank you, upon checking it does seem to be line-to-line nga. Before I started hiring electricians to work on the house, I thought both wires are indeed 110 each, pero the first electrician told me na hindi daw... I think he even wanted to check with a multimeter kung saan isang wire lang ang nakakabit sa outlet to test out the 'theory'. Pero at least by looking outside it does seem to be the case. And yes double pole po ang circuit breaker naming. At first I was confused kung bait dalawa ang ginagalaw every time i-off ang connection, but it makes sense now knowing that they both share what makes up the ~220 connection.
  
  I will try to pursue making my own grounding rod possibly using a rebar, di ko lang po sigurado kung saan pwede. I'm thinking about 50cm away from the panel board kasi doon lang ang area na 'libre' as in hindi masyado nadadaanan ng tao kasi dulo. My only concern is katabi ito ng outdoor CR. And minsan pag umuulan nababasa ang sahig dito. Is this area unsafe para sa grounding rod? I'm under the impression na as much as possible dapat dry ang area unless it's moist soil?
  
  To clear it up ito po basically ang area na sinasabi ko:
  
  
  
  
  (yellow circle is the panel board I spoke of, and red circle is the area where I am hoping to place the grounding rod)
  
  And is there any chance the ground rod can incorrectly turn into a hot one? Another concern kasi if another person or a pet tries to touch the grounding rod. Makukuryente po ba sila assuming na tama at mahigpit ang clamping ng wire sa rod?
  
  

  Tama naman ang video EXCEPT for one thing. Confused siya dun sa galing sa electric company/Meralco. Tulad ng sinabi ko before HINDI nagpro-provide ng GROUND ang Meralco! Ang green wire na tumatakbo sa gitna nung kuntador (kulay green) ay yung NEUTRAL copper wire na bonded sa aluminum cable. Yan ang issue ko sa mga videos na to, ok naman sila as a general guide pero hindi sila 100% correct at dahil dun nagpapakalat sila ng maling information.

  
  
  Thanks for letting me know. I think I'll just pursue my own grounding rod and forget about the service provider 'ground wire' for now na binangit ni kuya sa video. About the part where you say neutral should be bonded along with the ground wire in the panel board, it should be fine to avoid this right if I don't plan on making 110v outlets naman? I think for the 110v appliances we have we just rely on step down transformers.
  
  Especially since for now I only plan to put x2 grounded outlets in a bedroom. Not sure yet on how to proceed with the other outlets, pero I think I'll consider your suggestion (https://tipidpc.com/viewtopic.php?tid=7611&page=358#p12352247) at maglatag nalang ng ground wire. Might be unsightly to other people, pero I would rather not take my chances sa bathroom and kitchen. Katulad ng sa kitchen outlet, pinapalit ko kasi may mag green spots na sa sinasaksakan. Nung napalitan na ng bago na outlet, yung lumang outlet madding 'cooking oil' or what-not sa loob. It looked rusty, pero at the same time parang deep fried na cooking oil. Even the wire is no longer copper inside, but black. Though I think it might be better served by one of those outlet covers.
  
  As for the bathroom, we only have an outlet there para sa water heater. Pero what if the water heater doesn't come with a ground prong? Ordinary 2 flat pins lang siya. Will a grounded outlet still be of benefit or should it be a GFCI? I read kasi na supposedly ang GFCI if not grounded it can still work but only one way: it will 'protect' the user and still trip, but not the appliance. For it to protect the appliance daw it needs to be grounded.
  
  

  Doesn't really matter kung ano nasa panel as long as tama ang electrical continuity. Ang best actually is to have a separate ground busbar, which is a long rectangular metal bar with holes and screws:

  
  May tanong lang din po ako re: busbar. To get one of these kasama na po ba siya by default sa panel board na binili or is it something you buy separately and include in your own panel board? Just to know if I have to replace the panel board entirely. Compared to the picture you provided po kasi mallet lang ang panel board namin. (Shown in the picture I shared above) Otherwise I think the easiest route for me sa ngayon is to work with the current panel board and try to ground it with aforementioned screw present.
  
  -- edited by genyou on Jan 05 2021, 10:07 AM

• Peorth on 05 Jan 21 @ 02:01 PM #

  I will try to pursue making my own grounding rod possibly using a rebar, di ko lang po sigurado kung saan pwede. I'm thinking about 50cm away from the panel board kasi doon lang ang area na 'libre' as in hindi masyado nadadaanan ng tao kasi dulo. My only concern is katabi ito ng outdoor CR. And minsan pag umuulan nababasa ang sahig dito. Is this area unsafe para sa grounding rod? I'm under the impression na as much as possible dapat dry ang area unless it's moist soil?
  
  And is there any chance the ground rod can incorrectly turn into a hot one? Another concern kasi if another person or a pet tries to touch the grounding rod. Makukuryente po ba sila assuming na tama at mahigpit ang clamping ng wire sa rod?

  
  
  Ideal sana na sa lupa sa labas like sa bakuran ibaon ang grounding rod. Pwede maging "hot" or energized yung grounding rod if meron ground fault, meaning may accidentally nag-contact na live wire sa metal body ng isang appliance tapos yung appliance na yun ay may 3-prong plug at nakasaksak sa grounded outlet. Dahil dito, magflo-flow ang current from the live wire patunong ground wire, then papuntang grounding rod.
  
  Potentially pwede makaramdam ng shock ang tao or pet na magkaroon ng contact sa grounding rod na energized, but it depends sa resistance ng grounding rod relative sa resistance ng tao/pet. Kung mababa ang resistance ng grounding rod at mas mataas ang sa tao (e.g. dahil naka rubber slippers siya) then most likely walang maramdaman na shock dahil ang current puro sa grounding rod mapupunta. Conversely, kung mataas ang resistance ng grounding rod at mababa ang sa tao, pwede ma shock ang tao. Example ng mataas na resistance sa grounding rod would be kulang ang length ng rod or masyado dry and soil. Sa tao naman bumababa ang resistance pag may direct contact sa soil/earth, especially kung basa. That's why wet areas are considered high hazard for shock at mandatory ang use of GFCI protection for those areas.
  
  For these reasons, hindi ko rinerecommend maglagay ng grounding rod malapit sa banyo or any wet area kung saan may tatapak na tao or pets. Pag nagkaroon ng ground fault posible na may makuryente dahil magiging energized ang grounding rod. Best na ibaon sa lupa outside the house, e.g. sa bakuran.
  
  

  Thanks for letting me know. I think I'll just pursue my own grounding rod and forget about the service provider 'ground wire' for now na binangit ni kuya sa video. About the part where you say neutral should be bonded along with the ground wire in the panel board, it should be fine to avoid this right if I don't plan on making 110v outlets naman? I think for the 110v appliances we have we just rely on step down transformers.

  
  
  Pwede naman na hindi kung hindi niyo plan gamiting ang neutral for 110 volts, pero I would suggest you do it if possible kasi simple lang naman. Although hindi ginagamit ang neutral as the legitimate source of grounding ng bahay, remember na ang neutral ay bonded sa ground at multiple points through grounding rods ng poste. So if ever hindi masyado maganda ang grounding na provided ng grounding rod ng bahay, yung grounding ng distribution system through the neutral might help. In other words, don't rely sa grounding ng neutral for house grounding pero kahit papaano fallback parin siya. So sayang rin, and it only requires na i-screw mo yung neutral wire together with the ground sa panel.
  
  

  
  Especially since for now I only plan to put x2 grounded outlets in a bedroom. Not sure yet on how to proceed with the other outlets, pero I think I'll consider your suggestion (https://tipidpc.com/viewtopic.php?tid=7611&page=358#p12352247) at maglatag nalang ng ground wire. Might be unsightly to other people, pero I would rather not take my chances sa bathroom and kitchen. Katulad ng sa kitchen outlet, pinapalit ko kasi may mag green spots na sa sinasaksakan. Nung napalitan na ng bago na outlet, yung lumang outlet madding 'cooking oil' or what-not sa loob. It looked rusty, pero at the same time parang deep fried na cooking oil. Even the wire is no longer copper inside, but black. Though I think it might be better served by one of those outlet covers.
  
  As for the bathroom, we only have an outlet there para sa water heater. Pero what if the water heater doesn't come with a ground prong? Ordinary 2 flat pins lang siya. Will a grounded outlet still be of benefit or should it be a GFCI? I read kasi na supposedly ang GFCI if not grounded it can still work but only one way: it will 'protect' the user and still trip, but not the appliance. For it to protect the appliance daw it needs to be grounded.

  
  
  Actually ang GFCI is a direct replacement for a grounded outlet. Sa U.S. kung saan mas strict ang implementation ng electrical code kung ungrounded ang isang outlet at mahirap maglatag ng ground GFCI and linalagay to comply with code. Actually ang GFCI is superior to a grounded outlet in terms of protection from shock hazard dahil puputulin niya ang current pag may ground fault, compared to just a plain ground na meron paring current na flowing from the live wire to the ground.
  
  Misconception na ang ground ay for protection of an appliance. Remember na ang ground are primarily for protection of people against electrocution. Hindi nakakaprotect ang ground sa appliance unless yung appliance or device is plugged into a surge suppressor, then yung surge suppressor ginagamit ang ground to divert ang voltage surges. Ang major protection of appliances or devices ay yung fuse or circuit breaker. In case of overcurrent magtri-trip ang breaker or matutunaw ang fuse, cutting of yung current and preventing further damage sa appliance/device.
  
  Regarding yung water heater, kung 2-prong yan na plugged sa GFCI protected ka sa shock hazard. Pero kung 2-prong plug plugged into an ungrounded outlet then zero protection sa shock hazard. Ang water heater namin 2-prong ang plug, pero sa plug mismo may green grounding wire na nakalabas. Dun nakadikit yung grounding wire na ginawa namin, na connected sa grounding rod.
  
  

  May tanong lang din po ako re: busbar. To get one of these kasama na po ba siya by default sa panel board na binili or is it something you buy separately and include in your own panel board? Just to know if I have to replace the panel board entirely. Compared to the picture you provided po kasi mallet lang ang panel board namin. (Shown in the picture I shared above) Otherwise I think the easiest route for me sa ngayon is to work with the current panel board and try to ground it with aforementioned screw present.

  
  
  Kasama na siya, especially for large panels. For smaller panels pwedeng absent ang busbar completely or short lang, like 4 screw holes lang. Kung wala kang busbar sa panel bili ka lang sa store specializing in electrical supplies at mount mo sa free space sa panel using screws, makings sure na malayo yung busbar(s) from any live lines. Kung wala sa electrical supply kahit na sa online stores (like Shopee) makakahanap ka:
  
  
  
  <click here for link>
  (Overkill na to for ground or neutral kasi rated yung busbar na to for 130 amps and up to 300 volts AC.)
  
  Note na hindi important ang insulation for the neutral ang ground busbars kasi to begin with dapat ang service panel metal case ay bonded to the ground, and ang neutral bonded rin naman to ground sa service panel. So bare metal busbar for ground and neutral na directly screwed to yung service panel without insulation is okay.

• genyou on 05 Jan 21 @ 02:25 PM #

  Ideal sana na sa lupa sa labas like sa bakuran ibaon ang grounding rod. Pwede maging "hot" or energized yung grounding rod if meron ground fault, meaning may accidentally nag-contact na live wire sa metal body ng isang appliance tapos yung appliance na yun ay may 3-prong plug at nakasaksak sa grounded outlet. Dahil dito, magflo-flow ang current from the live wire patunong ground wire, then papuntang grounding rod.
  
  Potentially pwede makaramdam ng shock ang tao or pet na magkaroon ng contact sa grounding rod na energized, but it depends sa resistance ng grounding rod relative sa resistance ng tao/pet. Kung mababa ang resistance ng grounding rod at mas mataas ang sa tao (e.g. dahil naka rubber slippers siya) then most likely walang maramdaman na shock dahil ang current puro sa grounding rod mapupunta. Conversely, kung mataas ang resistance ng grounding rod at mababa ang sa tao, pwede ma shock ang tao. Example ng mataas na resistance sa grounding rod would be kulang ang length ng rod or masyado dry and soil. Sa tao naman bumababa ang resistance pag may direct contact sa soil/earth, especially kung basa. That's why wet areas are considered high hazard for shock at mandatory ang use of GFCI protection for those areas.

  
  Thank you for this. Sadly, wala kami bakuran sa property kasi halos lahat ng lupa may nakatayo na property kasi apartment itong lupa primarily. Puro cement at walang exposed na soil. Dati meron kami parang bakuran, pero since then may tinatayo na building on top of it. So I thought my only chance ngayon is magbakbak ng cement floor hangang sa umabot sa soil. Sa ngayon di ko lang po alam kung gaano kalalim bago umabot sa soil. Ang nakikita ko kasi na recommendation ranging from 1 meter (US based) or 8 feet (from Filipino electricians).
  
  Pero speaking of, yung grounding rod po ba, yung pagbilang ba ng lalim (e.g. 4 feet or 8 feet) ng pagkabaon nito nagsisimula only when nag contact na ang grounding rod sa soil at hindi cement? For example the first 2 feet are purely cement, counted po ba ito sa lalim o hindi? Bale if ang plano ay ibaon at least 4 feet sa lupa kailangan ko magbilang ng 6 feet to account for the 2 feet of cement?
  
  

  Pwede naman na hindi kung hindi niyo plan gamiting ang neutral for 110 volts, pero I would suggest you do it if possible kasi simple lang naman. Although hindi ginagamit ang neutral as the legitimate source of grounding ng bahay, remember na ang neutral ay bonded sa ground at multiple points through grounding rods ng poste. So if ever hindi masyado maganda ang grounding na provided ng grounding rod ng bahay, yung grounding ng distribution system through the neutral might help. In other words, don't rely sa grounding ng neutral for house grounding pero kahit papaano fallback parin siya. So sayang rin, and it only requires na i-screw mo yung neutral wire together with the ground sa panel.

  
  Embarrassingly, kaya ko po cinonsider na hindi muna ikabit ang neutral wire kasi hindi ko pa po nahahanap yung neutral wire. Dalawa po kasi panel board dito, maaaring ang isa ay sub panel lamang. Pero ang hinala ko yung neutral wire nasa first panel board na nasa front part ng bahay since yung meter ng Meralco ay nasa labs ng bahay then papasok siya patungo sa kwarto kung nasaan yung first panel board. Pero I will continue to look and hopefully mahanap ko to follow your advice.
  
  

  Misconception na ang ground ay for protection of an appliance. Remember na ang ground are primarily for protection of people against electrocution. Hindi nakakaprotect ang ground sa appliance unless yung appliance or device is plugged into a surge suppressor, then yung surge suppressor ginagamit ang ground to divert ang voltage surges. Ang major protection of appliances or devices ay yung fuse or circuit breaker. In case of overcurrent magtri-trip ang breaker or matutunaw ang fuse, cutting of yung current and preventing further damage sa appliance/device.

  
  Very thankful that you brought this up. I wanted to ask (since you mention before the situation with the ground and surge suppressor) pero forgot about it. Lagi po kasi nababasa ko na ang ground is for protection of two: the person and the appliance. Good to know na hindi pala siya for appliance unless, as you said, meron surge suppressor. I'll think twice now when plugging directly to a grounded outlet versus a grounded outlet w/ surge protector.
  
  

  Regarding yung water heater, kung 2-prong yan na plugged sa GFCI protected ka sa shock hazard. Pero kung 2-prong plug plugged into an ungrounded outlet then zero protection sa shock hazard. Ang water heater namin 2-prong ang plug, pero sa plug mismo may green grounding wire na nakalabas. Dun nakadikit yung grounding wire na ginawa namin, na connected sa grounding rod.

  
  I see. At least it's good na may paraan to make this water heater safe. 2 prong lang kasi siya. Electricians around me keep telling me na prop lang ang ground prong kaya hindi important, at safe naman daw basta plastic ang material ng water heater. (Not sure if law dito, pero sa Malaysia ata batas requiring water heaters to be plastic after an incident where someone died to electrocution) Thankfully hindi ako na-convince and am now looking into a GFCI especially after what you said. For the alternative to GFCI, di ko pa kasi napapagaralan kung saan ko idadaan ang ground wire kung sakali.
  
  About GFCI in particular: what is missing in a GFCI outlet w/o ground wire versus GFCI with ground wire? Kasi ang nakikita ko na recommendations for GFCI tulad nga po na sabi niyo a GFCI without ground is still better than an ordinary outlet without ground. Pero they still insist to wire a ground to the GFCI if possible and the reason they give out is to protect the appliance. If this is not the case, then why would one typically recommend a ground to the GFCI anyhow if it's just as safe for humans without the ground?
  
  

  Kasama na siya, especially for large panels. For smaller panels pwedeng absent ang busbar completely or short lang, like 4 screw holes lang. Kung wala kang busbar sa panel bili ka lang sa store specializing in electrical supplies at mount mo sa free space sa panel using screws, makings sure na malayo yung busbar(s) from any live lines. Kung wala sa electrical supply kahit na sa online stores (like Shopee) makakahanap ka:

  
  Ah, I think meron nga 4 screw slots yung panel board namin. Doon kinabit kasi ng electrician yung ground wire ko.
  
  To clarify (or correction pag may na misunderstood ako) the process lang po, yung wire na nakaclamp sa grounding rod ikakabit ko sa any slot in that busbar (or any of the 4 screws of my panel board if no busbar) and then ang ground wire galing sa outlet for example ikakabit ko din sa kahit anong slot?
  
  -- edited by genyou on Jan 05 2021, 02:55 PM

• Peorth on 05 Jan 21 @ 02:56 PM #

  Thank you for this. Sadly, wala kami bakuran sa property kasi halos lahat ng lupa may nakatayo na property kasi apartment itong lupa primarily. Dati meron kami parang bakuran, pero since then may tinatayo na building on top of it. So I thought my only chance ngayon is magbakbak ng cement floor hangang sa umabot sa soil. Sa ngayon di ko lang po alam kung gaano kalalim bago umabot sa soil. Ang nakikita ko kasi na recommendation ranging from 1 meter (US based) or 8 feet (from Filipino electricians).
  
  Pero speaking of, yung grounding rod po ba, yung pagbilang ba ng lalim (e.g. 4 feet or 8 feet) ng pagkabaon nito nagsisimula only when nag contact na ang grounding rod sa soil at hindi cement? For example the first 2 feet are purely cement, counted po ba ito sa lalim o hindi? Bale if ang plano ay ibaon at least 4 feet sa lupa kailangan ko magbilang ng 6 feet to account for the 2 feet of cement?

  
  
  Ang requirements ng grounding rod as per yung Phlippine Electrical Code actually pinost ko earlier. Repost ko na lang ulit:
  
  

  Rod and Pipe Electrodes. Rod and pipe electrodes shall not be less than 2,400 mm in length and shall consist of the following materials:
  a. Electrodes of pipe or conduit shall not be smaller than metric designator 21 (trade size ¾) and, where of iron or steel, shall have the outer surface galvanized or otherwise metal-coated for corrosion protection.
  b. Electrodes of rods of iron or steel shall be at least 16 mm in diameter. Stainless steel rods less than 16 mm in diameter, nonferrous rods, or their equivalent shall be listed and shall not be less than 13 mm in diameter.
  

  
  
  Ang minimum length ay 2.4 meters (7.87 feet, rounded off is 8 feet). Measure mo yung rebar kung pasok dun sa 16 mm minimum diameter requirement, kung hindi easiest to to use is simply metal pipe na 3/4 inch (21 mm). Saw off one end nung pipe ng diagonal (mga 45 degrees) para pointed siya at madali ibaon sa lupa. Sa other end, drill a hole para mag-screw ng bolt and nut so pwede mo i-clamp ang ground wire securely. Yung assumption ng grounding rod length is that essentially lahat nakabaon sa lupa, with only an inch or two above ng ground for clamping the wire. Kung may anything na magbabawas sa length of yung grounding rod in contact sa soil, then dapat i-extend ang rod by that amount. So for example 1 foot ang concrete na dadaanan ng rod at 7 feet lang ang in contact sa soil, yung grounding rod should be 9 feet in length so that maging 8 feet ang in-contact sa soil). Note na 2.4 meters is the minimum length, if you want to use a longer length (e.g. 3 meters) para mas sure ang grounding (lower ang resistance) pwedeng pwedeng gawin. Or alternatively, using more than 1 grounding rod.
  
  

  Electricians around me keep telling me na prop lang ang ground prong kaya hindi important, at safe naman daw basta plastic ang material ng water heater.

  
  
  Hindi lang naman ang body itself ang tinitigan. For a water heater, kahit plastic ang body, kung may film of water sa surface ng heater then pwede parin eto mag conduct ng electricity. Pero for things like hair dryer na fully plastic ang body with no exposed metal parts na ginagamit lang sa kwarto (hindi sa banyo!) agree ako na hindi na useful ang ground for shock prevention. Same for washing machine, plastic ang washing machine namin pero ang water sa water tub is electrically conductive, if somehow may live wire na nagkaroon ng contact sa water ng tub eh di shock hazard yan.
  
  

  To clarify the process lang po, yung wire na nakaclamp sa grounding rod ikakabit ko sa any slot in that busbar (or any of the 4 screws of my panel board if no busbar) and then ang ground wire galing sa outlet for example ikakabit ko din sa kahit anong slot?

  
  
  Kung busbar gamit mo screw mo yung grounding wire sa one slot, then any grounding wires from the outlets sa rest of the slots. Kung wala kang busbar better to screw the ground wire from the grounding rod, and ground wires going to outlets sa isang screw lang so that yung bare copper nila in contact with each other. Pwede rin gamitin ang different screws, say, yung grounding wire from grounding rod sa screw #1 ng metal panel, at 2 grounding wires papuntang socket screwed to screw #2. PERO kailangan mong bakbakin yung paint ng panel around the screw so that may magandang electrical contact ang wires sa panel mismo.
  
  -- edited by Peorth on Jan 05 2021, 02:59 PM

• genyou on 05 Jan 21 @ 03:24 PM #

  Ang minimum length ay 2.4 meters (7.87 feet, rounded off is 8 feet). Measure mo yung rebar kung pasok dun sa 16 mm minimum diameter requirement, kung hindi easiest to to use is simply metal pipe na 3/4 inch (21 mm). Saw off one end nung pipe ng diagonal (mga 45 degrees) para pointed siya at madali ibaon sa lupa. Sa other end, drill a hole para mag-screw ng bolt and nut so pwede mo i-clamp ang ground wire securely. Yung assumption ng grounding rod length is that essentially lahat nakabaon sa lupa, with only an inch or two above ng ground for clamping the wire. Kung may anything na magbabawas sa length of yung grounding rod in contact sa soil, then dapat i-extend ang rod by that amount. So for example 1 foot ang concrete na dadaanan ng rod at 7 feet lang ang in contact sa soil, yung grounding rod should be 9 feet in length so that maging 8 feet ang in-contact sa soil). Note na 2.4 meters is the minimum length, if you want to use a longer length (e.g. 3 meters) para mas sure ang grounding (lower ang resistance) pwedeng pwedeng gawin. Or alternatively, using more than 1 grounding rod.

  
  Understood. Thank you for the easily digestible info. I really appreciate it!
  
  Before I thought ground literally meant a rod hugged by cement (floor etc.) pero soil pala specifically for good conductivity. If I didn't know any better I would have improperly counted the cement portion of the floor towards the height of the rod.
  
  

  Kung wala kang busbar better to screw the ground wire from the grounding rod, and ground wires going to outlets sa isang screw lang so that yung bare copper nila in contact with each other.

  
  
  Many thanks! Ito po kasi ang gusto ko sana ihabol sa post ko kung pwede o dapat pag-combine ang wiring coming from the ground rod and the wiring coming from the outlet/s.
  
  As for the paint, parang wala naman pintura o baka nabakbak na previously pero I'll keep that in mind and look into it.
  
  
  
  I have another remotely similar question regarding outlet safety. May nakikita po ako na three prong outlet sa U.S. (where their outlets are mostly portrait) na upside down ang orientation. Typically kasi yung hot and neutral ang nasa taas then ground is nasa baba. Pero meron baliktad and I read that it's because in case the plug loosens and a metal object (jewelry) falls in that gap it can be a safety hazard. The other reason is an upside down outlet is an indicator of a switched outlet. So binaliktad nila so that the ground is the one on top which has no danger unlike the hot side in one of the 2 prongs. Though I thought this might be less of an issue for grounded outlets with shutters because presumable there's a better grip there.
  
  (I also noticed na for hospitals they default to the upside down orientation by default for all outlets.)
  
  
  
  
  And then for landscape orientations (that is prevalent in the PH) I saw something like this:
  
  
  
  
  In Filipino houses yung hot side (the smaller slit) is on top where contact is more likely. US based homes are avoiding this potential danger by making sure the hot side is under in case the same scenario above happens where a foreign object fills between the gap of a loose plug.
  
  Pero since, presumably, walang neutral wire ang outlet namin, it looks like in either orientation the danger is still present anyway? Or am I misunderstanding this? I'm guessing if there's any truth to this then the only real advantage is the upside down grounded outlet where the ground prong is on top. 2 prongs no bueno since there's no neutral wire? (I got a feeling this might sound stupid)
  
  -------------
  
  UPDATE:
  
  Also, it looks like I should look for a long grounding rod. I was told kasi na rebar can rust and also decrease the conductivity daw.
  
  Probably this copper plated 5/8" x 10 feet rod or the 3/4" x 10 feet (if it's still available) para pasok sa 16mm min. requirement. It's only copper plated pero I'm assuming the longevity is about the same as galvanized before it inevitably rusts and becomes less conducive supposedly. Wala kasi ako masyado mahanap na mahabang ground rod using other, better materials like copper-bonded.
  
  Copper plated rod: <click here for link>
  
  And then probably this #6 AWG (apparently used for residential homes) bare copper wire, without a conduit probably if my sources are correct that exposed ground cables is good without conduits. But wary of the outdoor elements making the wire ineffective over time such as corrosion. <click here for link>
  
  I brought this up with a family member who knows the house's situation more than me and it turns out the panel board na pinakita ko before is indeed a sub panel. Kaya siguro di ko makita yung neutral wire. Just complicates things a little kasi mas mahirap mag baon sa lupa doon. Pero kung maglalatag ng wire medyo malayo and exposed yung area.
  
  So I think I might have to just risk grounding the sub panel and just ground my AC and three-prong outlets there until I can figure out a better method.
  
  May binangit din sa akin which is wrapping the ground wire ng outlet (for example) sa rebar ng bahay. Meron kasi dito mag exposed rebar na connected sa buong bahay and I was told na maybe it can work kasi ganito daw ang grounding na ginagawa nila for welding for example.
  
  -- edited by genyou on Jan 05 2021, 09:58 PM

• Peorth on 06 Jan 21 @ 02:50 AM #

  Regarding the plug orientation, honestly never ko sila inisip. Yung ground sa taas does make sense though, dahil it can block a conductive object from bridging the current-carrying prongs and causing a short circuit. Regarding the 2-prong plug orientation, if you have a line-to-neutral setup then may sense to put the neutral prong on top to lessen the chance of contact with the live prong, though kung line-to-line then pointless kasi both prongs are hot. You can practice these at your discretion, pero para sakin it's not very important as long as you keep the plugs of appliances/devices firmly seated in their sockets.
  
  

  Also, it looks like I should look for a long grounding rod. I was told kasi na rebar can rust and also decrease the conductivity daw.
  
  Probably this copper plated 5/8" x 10 feet rod or the 3/4" x 10 feet (if it's still available) para pasok sa 16mm min. requirement. It's only copper plated pero I'm assuming the longevity is about the same as galvanized before it inevitably rusts and becomes less conducive supposedly. Wala kasi ako masyado mahanap na mahabang ground rod using other, better materials like copper-bonded.

  
  
  I think that's good enough, since the copper plating will help resist corrosion. You can use pure copper (nonferrous) pero very expensive, so I don't think it's worth it.
  
  

  And then probably this #6 AWG (apparently used for residential homes) bare copper wire, without a conduit probably if my sources are correct that exposed ground cables is good without conduits. But wary of the outdoor elements making the wire ineffective over time such as corrosion

  
  
  That size of wiring is probably a bit of an overkill though theres no issue in using oversized wiring compared to undersized one. Meron kasing table sa PEC about the sizes of the grounding conductor in relation to the size of the service entrance conductors (the wires entering your house that are spliced to the service drop), and the smallest gauge listed there is 8.0 mm^2 or 3.2 mm diameter, which is equivalent to ~#8 AWG. This is for service conductor gauge 30 mm^2 or smaller (#2 AWG). The next row in that table is 14 mm^2 (~ #6 AWG), for service conductor sizes 38 or 50 mm^2 (#1 or #0 AWG). In other words, the minimum size of the grounding conductor per PEC is #8 AWG, so the one you posted is one step higher above the minimum.
  
  

  I brought this up with a family member who knows the house's situation more than me and it turns out the panel board na pinakita ko before is indeed a sub panel. Kaya siguro di ko makita yung neutral wire. Just complicates things a little kasi mas mahirap mag baon sa lupa doon. Pero kung maglalatag ng wire medyo malayo and exposed yung area.
  
  So I think I might have to just risk grounding the sub panel and just ground my AC and three-prong outlets there until I can figure out a better method.

  
  
  Well, I believe any grounding is better than nothing at all. You can just extend or implement a new grounding at the main panel in the future once you've figured it out. Pero sa totoo lang, natandaan ko yung "electrician" na na-hire mo, parang sayang ang binayad mo kasi trabaho niya i-figure out lahat yan pero walang kwenta ang trabaho.
  
  

  May binangit din sa akin which is wrapping the ground wire ng outlet (for example) sa rebar ng bahay. Meron kasi dito mag exposed rebar na connected sa buong bahay and I was told na maybe it can work kasi ganito daw ang grounding na ginagawa nila for welding for example.

  
  
  Ang tawag diyan ay concrete-encased electrode (CEE), informally called an Ufer ground. Nabanggit ko yan earlier in my posts in this thread as one method of grounding, aside from grounding rods. Here's the requirements for the CEE from the Philippine Electrical Code:
  
  

  Concrete-Encased Electrode. An electrode encased by at least 50 mm of concrete, located within and near the bottom of a concrete foundation or footing that is in direct contact with the earth, consisting of at least 6,000 mm of one or more bare or zinc galvanized or other electrically conductive coated steel reinforcing bars or rods of not less than 13 mm in diameter, or consisting of at least 6,000 mm of bare copper conductor not smaller than 22 mm2. Reinforcing bars shall be permitted to be bonded together by the usual steel tie wires or other effective means.

  
  
  Kung may access ka sa rebar ng foundation ng bahay, or rebar na sure ka electrically-continuous with the rebar ng concrete foundation then you can opt to use that instead of putting a grounding rod.
  
  Note na in a very idea situation, maganda i-test yung resistance ng grounding. We use the same as the U.S. standard, which require the ground to have a resistance of 25 ohms or less. Unfortunately kailangan mo ng special meter to test for this, and siguro mga electrician for industrial or commercial applications lang meron ganyang equipment.
  
  -- edited by Peorth on Jan 06 2021, 03:54 AM

• genyou on 06 Jan 21 @ 09:40 AM #

  You can practice these at your discretion, pero para sakin it's not very important as long as you keep the plugs of appliances/devices firmly seated in their sockets.

  
  Is that not supposed to be a thing po? Kasi I noticed some of my outlets, magisa nag loloosen ang contact ng plug sa socket. There are times na exposed medyo yung pin ng plug so I have to correct it occasionally by pushing the plug back in. I don't think it's human error naman kasi wala dumadaan sa area na yun.
  
  I asked 2 different electricians, but they didn't have a clear answer. I assume it's wear and tear? Only some outlets are exhibiting this strange behavior kasi. Or maybe it's because I don't use the other outlets as much to ever notice.
  
  

  I think that's good enough, since the copper plating will help resist corrosion. You can use pure copper (nonferrous) pero very expensive, so I don't think it's worth it.

  
  This is duly noted, thank you. If 3/4" is not available, pwede na po ba kaya ang 5/8" kasi a little under 16mm diameter siya. Around 15.8 po yata kasi ang 5/8". I was just told po kasi na maaaring 5/8" nalang ang meron sila.
  
  

  In other words, the minimum size of the grounding conductor per PEC is #8 AWG, so the one you posted is one step higher above the minimum.

  
  I just remembered, but the white ground wire (no green kasi ubos na daw at the time so white) going to the outlet is #12 AWG (same as the hot wires) is this ok or should it conform po ba to the same standard for the ground wire (#8 AWG) going to the rod?
  
  

  Well, I believe any grounding is better than nothing at all. You can just extend or implement a new grounding at the main panel in the future once you've figured it out. Pero sa totoo lang, natandaan ko yung "electrician" na na-hire mo, parang sayang ang binayad mo kasi trabaho niya i-figure out lahat yan pero walang kwenta ang trabaho.

  
  Yes, and I read that there may be a limit of 20ft for the bare copper/insulated ground wire. If this is true then it will indeed be more difficult to ground the main panel unless makahanap ako ng mas malapit na lupa to place a new rod.
  
  And to be honest, after paying for a job that honestly could've been achieved for so much less after asking around and understanding the complexity (or lack thereof) of the poor job they performed, it sucks pero I guess at least this brought me here and I came out knowing even a little more about the subject. Mahirap po talaga kasi mag hire pag wala along alam. They find ways to be shifty and do less work for as much pay possible. I don't mind paying good workers equivalent to the value they present, but out of principle I absolutely do not like paying for a botched job. (That sometimes may cost more to remedy.) A part of it is probably my fault for looking for an electrician online, just saw an ad on Carousell and Facebook then contacted the person. Being inexplicably busy (nurse) nadala ako ng sales talk unknowingly to me at the time. Maganda kausap nung una, pero when I tried to question the legitimacy of the job once I kept getting gaslighted na "Tumanda na po sila sa trabaho na yan" and finally a few days ago when I tried to claim their so-called "warranty" for the provenly useless job, no response. Lesson learned. For 'basic' jobs it seems better going forward to try learning how to do it and apply it myself than feeling gutted like this. The same family member who performs basic electrical jobs in the house also feel the same with hiring and I wish I felt that way too sooner.
  
  (Sorry, napa-rant bigla... haha)
  
  

  Kung may access ka sa rebar ng foundation ng bahay, or rebar na sure ka electrically-continuous with the rebar ng concrete foundation then you can opt to use that instead of putting a grounding rod.

  
  And to think na yung butas kung saan dumaan ang wiring na nilatag nila may exposed rebar (tutukain nalang sila) na supposedly connected sa pundasyon ng bahay, inisip pa din nila ikabit yung ground wire sa panel board na hindi naman grounded. Meron din iba pang exposed rebar na connected sa foundation in the area...
  I think they just aren't familiar with grounding period (in retrospect) kasi they seem to be the type to insist their clients na hindi kailangan ang grounding. I had to explain thoroughly to them to have them install a grounded outlet. Though in the end palpak ang trabaho. It was probably a sign when they suggested to tamper with Meralco's grounding rod or worse connecting the white neutral cable to my outlet's ground wire.
  
  Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself but in that situation I think it's better to take on the assumption that the said rebar has more chances of succeeding than the non-grounded panel board which is definitely NOT going to work at all. Even if the rebar has a measly 50% chance of working for this purpose it's already better than the other alternative which is a 0 chance. Even more dangerous is their assurance na this grounded wire to the panel board can defend against lightning surges. Knowing more about the subject now it's just... Ugh. Never again and will make sure to tell the same to people I know.
  
  I'm just disappointed they even had the gall to say no to the ground rod when I asked kasi di daw kailangan. Baka di lang nila kailangan kamo mapagod sa trabaho dahil di naman malakas suspetsa ng client at the time. If at the time I knew the panel board wasn't grounded, I would've seen through their BS. If not that then I wish I had this surge protector with the ground indicator to insist the grounding doesn't work then and there. Remembering it again they didn't even do proper tests to the outlet after they completed the wiring to the circuit breaker.
  
  Though I can try out the Ufer ground, I think to be safe (since as you say I have no way to measure the ohms) I will make do with the rod for now and possibly even place a second 10ft rod some 10ft–20ft away from the first one for extra measure. Especially since I've read more of the rod method instead of the Ufer. Pero I might give it a try out of pure curiosity lang to see if the surge protector ground light will react to it.
  
  Now just trying to decide on the exact area to place the rod so I can measure the distance between that and the panel board and then order the bare copper wire. But might just get 6m (20ft) and work with that length since articles suggest that's the recommended max. Just a bit undecided between an area fully exposed as in walang bubong/harang (and gets drenched by rain) or the area that's not exposed but may occasionally get wet during strong rains kasi yung tubig pwede gumapang sa area na yun.
  
  -- edited by genyou on Jan 06 2021, 12:19 PM

• Peorth on 06 Jan 21 @ 02:35 PM #

  Is that not supposed to be a thing po? Kasi I noticed some of my outlets, magisa nag loloosen ang contact ng plug sa socket. There are times na exposed medyo yung pin ng plug so I have to correct it occasionally by pushing the plug back in. I don't think it's human error naman kasi wala dumadaan sa area na yun.

  
  
  It might be related to the quality of the convenience outlets themselves. We live in a rented house that's decades old and I've never noticed any of our plugs loosening. I forgot what the brand of the outlets are but they are made of brown plastic and still use the traditional system of using screws for the wires. The newer outlets tend to use the "clamp" system where you merely have to insert the wires into holes and it gets clamped. I think this is fine, but overall I think the quality of residential electrical equipment has gone down. Or maybe, more accurately, there are more brands to choose from and the cheaper ones might not be that good. I remember visiting a home building thread in another forum and if I recall correctly some people were advising to use Panasonic switches and sockets instead of stuff like Royu because of higher quality for the former.
  
  

  This is duly noted, thank you. If 3/4" is not available, pwede na po ba kaya ang 5/8" kasi a little under 16mm diameter siya. Around 15.8 po yata kasi ang 5/8". I was just told po kasi na maaaring 5/8" nalang ang meron sila.

  
  
  I doubt the little difference in size will make a difference in grounding performance, it should work well.
  
  

  I just remembered, but the white ground wire (no green kasi ubos na daw at the time so white) going to the outlet is #12 AWG (same as the hot wires) is this ok or should it conform po ba to the same standard for the ground wire (#8 AWG) going to the rod?

  
  
  If you have to be strict about it, the minimum size of the grounding wire is #8 AWG. I'm actually curious at to why our standards require such large-gauge wires, considering that appliance circuits rated for 20 amperes only use #12 AWG. In the ground fault scenario where a live wire becomes electrically continuous with the ground, then the current from the live wire will flow to the ground. Just by common sense, a #12 AWG ground wire would obviously be able to handle the current from a # 12 AWG live wire. Moreover, it's impossible for a the ground to actually draw the max of 6.6 kVA the #12 AWG can carry since it isn't an appliance or device drawing power. My personal hunch is simple: the large wire gauge is to ensure the presence of low resistance even if the length of the ground wire is long. The lower the resistance of the grounding circuit, the better it will function. Maybe this is the reason why the ground conductor is the thickest wire despite not being normally current-carrying. I'm not sure what the impact of using #12 AWG wire will be on grounding performance, but the minimum by our electrical code is certainly #8 AWG.
  
  

  Yes, and I read that there may be a limit of 20ft for the bare copper/insulated ground wire. If this is true then it will indeed be more difficult to ground the main panel unless makahanap ako ng mas malapit na lupa to place a new rod.

  
  
  The max length might be in the PEC but I haven't found it yet (it's a very long document!), I'll try to look for such an entry when I have the time.
  
  

  Though I can try out the Ufer ground, I think to be safe (since as you say I have no way to measure the ohms) I will make do with the rod for now and possibly even place a second 10ft rod some 10ft–20ft away from the first one for extra measure. Especially since I've read more of the rod method instead of the Ufer. Pero I might give it a try out of pure curiosity lang to see if the surge protector ground light will react to it.

  
  
  Actually, the win-win scenario for you, since the rebar is accessible is to use both the Ufer ground and grounding rod and just tie them together. Even without a grounding meter it's highly likely you'll get an acceptably low resistance because you're using two grounding systems.
  
  BTW, if you have some time I highly suggest you read this blog article called "Philippine Electrical Wiring – Building our Philippine House" from myphilippinelife.com. The blog is about a foreigner (I think American) who married a Filipina and retired in the Philippines, I think in Iloilo, and built their house here. That particular article talks all about residential wiring and their experiences when building a house. The guy obviously knows something about electrical stuff and the article is highly detailed, with lots of pictures and discussions about how the different parts of their electrical system was built. They used an Ufer ground for that house and I believe it was discussed somewhere in another article that he was able to test the ground using a meter from a friend and that the resistance was very low. The website is down but you can access the cached article here:
  <click here for link>
  
  -- edited by Peorth on Jan 06 2021, 02:36 PM

• genyou on 06 Jan 21 @ 03:53 PM #

  I forgot what the brand of the outlets are but they are made of brown plastic and still use the traditional system of using screws for the wires. The newer outlets tend to use the "clamp" system where you merely have to insert the wires into holes and it gets clamped.

  
  Yes! Before I started opening the outlets in this house (Panasonic Wide Series) I was surprised to find they were the clamp type since I keep seeing recommendations online to ensure a screw is holding the wire. So far the only brand I saw that does use screws to hold in the wire is Schneider Electric. It's sold locally pero di gaano kilala yata as a brand for outlets. But they're also selling a newer 'premium' line that utilizes a clamp type.
  
  I also chose a Panasonic (Slim Art Series) for the new outlets here since among all brands daw kasi ang Panasonic daw ang may pinakamahigpit na grip. Parehas din po narinig ko about Royu being a little less reliable on top of mimicking Panasonic's design.
  
  Though the other side of this house kung saan may tinayo sila na bagong building (started in 2018) puro Royu ang materials. Mas mura kasi siguro at yung funding kasi ng project ipinabahala sa contractor kaya siya na siguro nag-diskarte to maximize profit as much as possible. Pero yung isang bagay na pinakakadismaya ko puro 2 wire ang outlet... A new build is the best opportunity to write something correctly pero hindi pa din ginawa. May 3 prong outlet nga doon pero 2 wires lahat...
  
  

  My personal hunch is simple: the large wire gauge is to ensure the presence of low resistance even if the length of the ground wire is long. The lower the resistance of the grounding circuit, the better it will function. Maybe this is the reason why the ground conductor is the thickest wire despite not being normally current-carrying. I'm not sure what the impact of using #12 AWG wire will be on grounding performance, but the minimum by our electrical code is certainly #8 AWG.

  
  I was wondering the same since, as you said, the ground isn't expected to hold current unless there's say a ground fault or a discharge coming through. But your explanation makes sense. I'll look into sourcing an insulated #8 AWG somehow. But I think this is a good opportunity kasi moulding pvc ang ginamit na conduit nila na nakadikit sa dingding, not sure if magkakasya ang #8 doon so it might be a good chance to change the conduit.
  
  At first I was confused if the bare copper wire I showed you is in fact #6 AWG. Yung seller kasi di alam kung and dahil supplier lang sila, pero upon searching kasi iba iba ang result for 16mm2 conversion to AWG. May #5 and #6, then ang supplier mismo sabi #16.
  
  

  The max length might be in the PEC but I haven't found it yet (it's a very long document!), I'll try to look for such an entry when I have the time.

  
  
  It could be related din po sa binangit niyo earlier about how the larger copper wire is present as a compromise in events where the copper wiring is lengthy. So far I plan to order a 6m and hope that it's enough kasi dadaan sa ceiling before it gets to the other side where the panel board is para di nakakalat. I appreciate your help in this! No rush whatsoever, I plan to play it safe anyhow and max it at 6m.
  
  If I may ask: Is 2017 PEC the latest book or is there an even newer one? I am considering getting the book din po kasi for future reference.
  
  

  Actually, the win-win scenario for you, since the rebar is accessible is to use both the Ufer ground and grounding rod and just tie them together. Even without a grounding meter it's highly likely you'll get an acceptably low resistance because you're using two grounding systems.

  
  That makes sense, I can forego the second rod you're right. To clarify how this will go the wire going from the rod and the wire going from the rebar ay naka-screw together sa isang screw of the panel (in the event of no busbar) and, alternatively, if busbar is present they are screwed separately in it? Looking at busbars currently kasi meron local supplier, just haven't measured yet what will fit in our panel board. <click here for link> Fingers crossed that one will!
  
  

  BTW, if you have some time I highly suggest you read this blog article called "Philippine Electrical Wiring – Building our Philippine House" from myphilippinelife.com.

  
  Yes! When searching for help online I actually stumbled upon that article too, but never got around to reading the entire thing. Thanks for the reminder, will peruse this tonight!
  
  -- edited by genyou on Jan 06 2021, 06:55 PM

• Peorth on 06 Jan 21 @ 07:27 PM #

  Pero yung isang bagay na pinakakadismaya ko puro 2 wire ang outlet... A new build is the best opportunity to write something correctly pero hindi pa din ginawa. May 3 prong outlet nga doon pero 2 wires lahat...

  
  
  Ang problem kasi walang inspection system sa Philippines, at least sa residential. Meron akong subscribed channel sa Youtube about one guy building his entire house sa rural land sa U.S., and one thing na nalaman ko dun is that kahit nasa liblib na lugar pupuntahan ka ng inspectors to check wiring, plumbing, etc. Pag in violation ipapaulit sayo until pumasa. Sa Pinas anything goes, tapos hindi properly educated ang most electricians servicing homes. Example na yung sayo, plus even yung Youtube videos of these people na may wrong info. Especially worrying for me are the videos sa Youtube from Pinoy "electricians" and even an engineer teaching people with split phase (line-to-line) to create 110 volt systems using a grounding rod! I've seen two of these videos and it's utterly ridiculous how they're teaching people to use on hot line and a grounded line to create 110 volts when a lot of houses have a neutral to begin with. These videos don't even mention the existence of the neutral at all! I have a feeling that many of these are "electricians" are those who just learned by apprenticeship ("monkey see, monkey do") and not by attending a formal vocational course. That's why they just learned from hand-me-down knowledge, which is faulty, and it keeps perpetuating.
  
  Incidentally, if you're looking at Youtube videos from electricians, one guy who seems reliable is one who goes by the name of Jun Aux TV. I've seen a couple of his videos and from what I've seen the stuff he's saying is correct. Just last night, I was watching one of his videos tackling the sizing of wiring for service entrance conductors, and he correctly stated that the minimum size of the grounding conductor is #8 AWG.
  
  

  pero upon searching kasi iba iba ang result for 16mm2 conversion to AWG. May #5 and #6, then ang supplier mismo sabi #16.

  
  
  The problem with wiring is that there are three measures commonly in use, American Wire Gauge (AWG), diameter (mm) and cross-sectional area (mm^2). The PEC doesn't use AWG but the latter two. The conversions between them aren't exact but when in doubt you just need to pick the thicker wire gauge because you can never go wrong with using oversized rather than undersized conductors.
  
  

  If I may ask: Is 2017 PEC the latest book or is there an even newer one? I am considering getting the book din po kasi for future reference.

  
  
  I was able to find a PDF copy online but there's no title page indicating the version or date so I'm not sure if what I have is even the latest version. It's likely available as a book but I'm not sure where you can find it. If you want to check the PDF, I believe I got it from this link: <click here for link>
  
  

  That makes sense, I can forego the second rod you're right. To clarify how this will go the wire going from the rod and the wire going from the rebar ay naka-screw together sa isang screw of the panel (in the event of no busbar) and, alternatively, if busbar is present they are screwed separately in it? Looking at busbars currently kasi meron local supplier, just haven't measured yet what will fit in our panel board. <click here for link> Fingers crossed that one will!

  
  
  Those are nice busbars and pretty cheap too. Just connect the grounding conductor from the Ufer ground and the one from the grounding rod together at the service panel using a busbar. The grounding conductor is supposed to be continuous and you can't just splice them together unless you meet certain conditions:
  
  

  (c) Continuous. Grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be installed in one continuous length without a splice or joint except as permitted in (1) through (4):
  (1) Splicing shall be permitted only by irreversible compression-type connectors listed as grounding and bonding equipment or by the exothermic welding process.
  (2) Sections of busbars shall be permitted to be connected together to form a grounding electrode conductor.
  (3) Bonding jumper(s) from grounding electrode(s) and grounding electrode conductor(s) shall be permitted to be connected to an
  aluminum or copper busbar not less than 6 mm × 50 mm. The busbar shall be securely fastened and shall be installed in an accessible location. Connections shall be made by a listed connector or by the exothermic welding process.
  (4) Where aluminum busbars are used, the installation shall comply with 2.50.3.15(a).

  
  
  Looking closely at this entry (#2), it seems it's not acceptable to just bind together the grounding wires using a single screw at the service panel, you really have to use one or more busbars. Well, it might apply for stuff outside the service panel, but regardless, it's really best to use a busbar because #8 AWG is pretty thick and it's much more manageable to work with if you're using dedicated screw holes for the grounding conductors.
  
  -- edited by Peorth on Jan 06 2021, 07:32 PM

• genyou on 06 Jan 21 @ 10:36 PM #

  Just noticed the Panasonic receptacle only allows 1.5mm^2 to 4mm^2 so it's unlikely for me to use #8 AWG from the outlet going to the busbar.
  
  

  Especially worrying for me are the videos sa Youtube from Pinoy "electricians" and even an engineer teaching people with split phase (line-to-line) to create 110 volt systems using a grounding rod!

  
  Admittedly a family member used to do that for his 110v television. I believe pinasa lang din sa kanya yung info. Meron kasi daw dati ground dito sa property, pero it's been covered since dahil may itinayo na bahay sa taas ng lupa na yun. Not sure why he didn't just use our step down transformer, if it's because of 'dirty power' or what pero now I think he tries to avoid it since pinagbabawal ni Meralco din dahil hindi ata tumatakbo sa kuntador.
  
  

  Looking closely at this entry (#2), it seems it's not acceptable to just bind together the grounding wires using a single screw at the service panel, you really have to use one or more busbars. Well, it might apply for stuff outside the service panel, but regardless, it's really best to use a busbar because #8 AWG is pretty thick and it's much more manageable to work with if you're using dedicated screw holes for the grounding conductors.

  
  You're right. Iniisip ko din po kasi earlier kung papano ko ikakabit ang dalawang #8 AWG wires sa isang maliit na screw sa panel box. It looks like the busbar is the way to go since they can accommodate even #4 from what other people say.
  
  

  The problem with wiring is that there are three measures commonly in use, American Wire Gauge (AWG), diameter (mm) and cross-sectional area (mm^2). The PEC doesn't use AWG but the latter two. The conversions between them aren't exact but when in doubt you just need to pick the thicker wire gauge because you can never go wrong with using oversized rather than undersized conductors.
  

  
  Yeah tama po kayo, 16mm^2 is twice the size of the #8. I might consider looking into getting a green insulated #8 ground wire instead. Even though there's few rooms for concern with a bare copper wire that's grounded, I saw conflicting info with the conduit. I don't think I want to leave a bare wire regardless without a conduit so I was thinking of using those flexible orange PVC instead of a metal conduit, pero I think it's safer and less to think about to just get insulated #6 or #8 (whichever is available) and be done with it.
  
  -- edited by genyou on Jan 07 2021, 04:35 PM

• baysil2000 on 08 Jan 21 @ 01:22 AM #

  Ang haba ng mga usapan Master. :)
  
  Asan na ba si Sir Tony?